080 Youth Perspectives 2 - Sustainable Periods

About this Episode

Sara Udin is a client, friend and absolute go getter and one for youth voices in celebrating on the podcast.

Sarah is the founder and CEO of Amala Periods, Cambodia’s first sustainable period underwear and education company.

She spoke to me about what it's like being a Brit starting a business based in Cambodia.

"These were all huge things for me to both emotionally, and obviously commercially to overcome when starting a period business in a country where periods are not spoken about periods are not considered clean they are to do with your beauty and intelligence.

It's shown me that the period of education is missing. And that's why we're going to provide it.

Subscribe to Where Ideas Launch

Connect with Sara

Episode Transcript

Katherine Ann Byam 0:01
Sarah Udin is a client, friend, and absolute go getter, and one of four youth voices I'm celebrating on the podcast. She spoke to me about what it's like being a Brit starting a business based in Cambodia. Listen to this clip now.

Sarah Udin 0:16
These were all huge things for me to both emotionally, and obviously commercially, overcome when starting a period business in a country where periods are not spoken about, periods are not considered clean, they are to do with your beauty and intelligence and all of the other things. Really for me, this has been a real big learning curve. And it's shown me that the period education is missing. And that's why we're going to provide it. Another thing is that only one of the 15 girls that we interviewed could tell us why they got a period. So that again, was a huge factor for me when we said, actually, we're not just going to make this a sustainable business that solves a waste problem, we're going to make this a social impact change, change these women's lives.

Katherine Ann Byam 1:00
This is season five, the great debates of our times, Season Five will be centred around the great debates. And we will be comparing and contrasting different viewpoints on various topics that are consuming the public discourse at present. The reason I've decided to take this approach is because we, or at least many of us, are losing the skill of debate. And I think this is an essential skill for us all to practice once more. I don't see how we get to the point of saving the world and saving our planet. If we don't know how to discuss our differences. I also think that the solution to most of our challenges is somewhere in the spectrum of views, but never a type of extreme. I will be working with guests to curate the content and discuss beforehand, I will understand their positions, their areas of genius, and navigate my questions around that so that the conversation is challenging and stimulating without being combative. I hope you enjoy season five of where ideas launch the Sustainable Innovation Podcast.

Today, my guest is Sarah Udin. She's the founder and CEO of Amala periods, Cambodia's first sustainable period underwear and education company, Sarah, welcome to where ideas launch. It's such a pleasure to host you on this programme and to hear your story.

Sarah Udin 2:16
Thank you so much for having me, I feel absolutely honoured that you've invited me on as a guest.

Katherine Ann Byam 2:22
So how does a girl from Cambridge end up founding a startup in Cambodia? Tell us about your journey?

Sarah Udin 2:28
That's a great question. Thank you. It's a very, very random story and a very long story. So I'll try and keep it nice and short and to the point, but, I don't know from a very, very young age, I always knew that I was going to live abroad, or I always dreamed of living abroad, let's say, I didn't know it was going to happen. But I made it happen for myself. So I started learning foreign languages. When I was about three years old, I continued with that. And I always, I always knew that, that was going to be my way to leave England, was actually learning foreign languages. So I ended up studying a French and German degree, which really helped me build that confidence. But I actually started travelling alone when I was 16.

So I was travelling over to France, to Germany. And I'd been working since I was 13. So this was all money that I'd earnt and that this was all that I wanted to do with it. So I started coaching gymnastics when I was 13 years old. And it really opened a lot of doors to me. And it showed me that I can actually make decisions to visit places around the world that actually, I always just dreamed of. So I was, I feel very blessed that I had that opportunity. And I first came to Cambodia when I was 18.

So I did the classic gap year I had three jobs, I worked very hard to get enough money to travel the world and I did it. I came over to India, Myanmar, Singapore, Thailand, Laos, Cambodia, and I absolutely fell in love with Cambodia. On that trip, I just, the language, the culture, it made me feel calm, it's a more calm version of Thailand, but it's a little bit more lively than Laos, say, and it just felt like somewhere that I knew I was going to come back to and I ended up coming back after studying abroad in Germany, I met some friends there, one of my friends had moved here. And so I said, of course, I'll come visit you on holiday. That would be great. Thank you so much. So we came out, a group of the girls, and we had the best trip ever. And also just being able to see the lifestyle out here and realising that this dream was actually a reality for somebody that I knew. And this was something that's no longer just a dream. It was something that was within my grasp.

So I came back home to England, and I carried on with my nine to five and I, to be honest with you, I was miserable. I actually got diagnosed with depression and anxiety at that time, and I realised that this was not the place for me. And it was a really, really tough decision. But having a friend out there really helped me. So I managed to book that flight and leave everything I knew and loved. And I didn't have a return ticket and that was in January 2020 just before the pandemic, woho! It was a scary decision and at that point I wasn't really sure if I should stay or not. So when I first arrived in Cambodia, I got a job as an English teacher. So I've actually done lots of different jobs. I've been a gymnatics coach, I've been a ski resort manager, I've been a wedding and events coordinator, I've been a data analyst for Amazon, I've been lots and lots of different things.

So I thought actually teaching is a good way for me to use these skills. Schools in Cambodia are run like businesses and it made me not very happy to be a part of it, because I didn't feel like the education was being accessed by the children in the way that I wanted it to. So I basically wanted to find a way out of that. And I was talking to the TAs and the teachers at school about period panties, because I had tried them once before, and I was wearing them that day. And I was telling everybody about that in that nice, oversharing way I have, and nobody had heard of them. So I was quite confused by this. And I thought, Oh, what do you mean, nobody has heard of them, so I kind of explained them, I showed everybody, everybody seemed really interested by this product. And I thought, actually, this could be a possible opportunity for me, because this is a sustainable item and I've always dreamed of running a sustainable business myself, like this has been something that I've always wanted as my own baby. And I just thought this is something that makes sense.

So then that was basically where it started, I so, I researched a lot, I got some support from people like, of course, Katherine, and from Lara and I basically, I just started asking around and selling to my friends and selling at local markets. And that's the point at which the business started to take off. So I couldn't run a business alongside a full time teaching job. So I then switched back over to my coaching. So I then started a dance school, at the same time, I've been coaching gymnastics at the dance school, while running the business, and also coaching other sports in other locations around the city. And that's kind of the short version of the random journey that brought me to being the CEO of Amala Periods.

Katherine Ann Byam 6:42
This is insane. Like, how old are you now, if you don't mind me asking?

Sarah Udin 6:46
No, that's fine. I turned 28.

Katherine Ann Byam 6:47
Right, and in that space of about 10 years, you've basically done like 10 jobs explored so many different aspects of yourself as well, finding out what you liked what you didn't like. And I think this is such a great empowering story, both from a career perspective, but also from, you know, the sustainable transition perspective, and I think being in Cambodia is a bit of an eye opener on many different aspects of life. Very, very different from the UK. I've been there myself, roughly around 10 years ago, maybe. And I think it's such a change and a shift from what we would expect. So I want to touch on something that you said, So you talked about the education system in Cambodia and being run like a business, etc? Would you say that it is tilting toward a more western standard of education? What are your thoughts on it?

Sarah Udin 7:37
So I would say the schools in Cambodia being run like businesses is kind of an independent issue, it just was the final trigger for me to realise that this was, I didn't want to just fit into something that was set up for to make profit for somebody else, that was not actually supporting children in a good educational way, it was more of a profit building situation. And that's not how I felt comfortable teaching. It also felt like we had to just tick a lot of boxes and take a lot of photos rather than actually teach the children. And so that's also part of what I've put into the period education workshops is that I don't want to do it so it's just to tick boxes and to take photos for people and all of these things, because that's how the education system worked.

So although I can't say exactly that this was the trigger, what, I've, what I'm doing is I'm making sure to take all of this information from working in the schooling system in Cambodia to make sure that when we do our period education programmes, which is we've started doing now, we aren't doing it in the standard Cambodian way. And we're actually doing it in a much more dynamic, entertaining, fun, sports coaching style way, which makes people just much more comfortable about learning about this very taboo topic.

Katherine Ann Byam 8:44
And just in terms of the whole relationship with women's health, in general, like I think if I were to speak for myself, and I'm a bit older than you, but I don't think we received the level of education that you receive today in terms of period health and how to manage those things. It's also because, you know, we're learning more about the whole topic as well. But what would you say is one of the reasons for the big gap in knowledge that you found there?

Sarah Udin 9:11
I totally know what you mean, actually, by that, I would say it does feel a little bit like we are living in the past, in, not in a bad way, but it does feel like you know, the way that we live certain ways in Cambodia that still like lots of things that would have been acceptable in the 70s and 80s, in the UK, and in the western world, that is how we live over here now. And I think that the education system reflects that where there's still things that are just not spoken about, there are just tick boxes that people have to fit into. And also women's health is not spoken about because it's not relevant because it's not important as part of society, and it's, it's deemed to be shameful.

So it's not something that is very important as part of the education system. I would definitely say that. Yeah, that's a really interesting point. I was actually talking to one of my friends about that the other day, she said I'd never thought of it like that, but it's literally like we're living in the 70s like we are doing what our people like in the 70s were doing, but we're doing it in the 2020s, this is strange, but I think that that is definitely reflected in the, in the gender equality and the way that women are viewed as well. So actually, I have a very short, little anecdote that I can tell you about from the other day.

So I went to the Miss Universe Cambodia event. And I, one of my friends was competing. So I went to support my friend. And I'm really pleased I went to support it. And I thought, it's a very strange idea, this whole beauty pageant thing I'm not, I'm not 100% sure if I actually support the idea of it. But I'm very happy to support my friend. And she did an amazing job. But at the end of it, there was a little altercation. And there was basically a guy following one of the contestants around with his phone, and he was harassing her. And he was following her and shouting at her and nobody was doing anything. So I stepped in. And I stopped him from filming her. And I didn't understand what was going on. And to me that, that was the most shocking thing in the world, because these, this is one of the women, I would have expected to actually have been able to say something and to have actually been able to stop this. But this was a really clear image for me about how this gender inequality is so still here and then when nobody else was willing to step in to stop this harassment, of a contestant that has just been celebrated on national television, and I was the only person that stepped in, it accidentally went viral on Tiktok as well. But at the same time, I still I stand by it, because I would much rather step in when I can see something like that happening.

Katherine Ann Byam 11:29
That's insane. And again, yeah, it's a great example of the challenges that you're facing actually dealing with this. So I want to, I want to go directly into that question. I mean, how have you sort of adjusted and accommodated all the cultural learnings that you've had to have in order to run this business? Tell me a little bit about how that went?

Sarah Udin 11:49
So again, great question. I yeah, I'm not gonna lie. It's been challenging. Of course, learning a new culture and learning a new language is always going to be challenging, especially when it's very, very far away from your own because I am very much not Cambodian. And I don't have any Cambodian cultural heritage or anything. My, my ancestors were Indian, but it's not something that we actually carry in our family particularly. So learning the language during the pandemic, of course, has been the biggest struggle just because meeting people has been difficult. We've then kind of tried to counteract that by working with combined marketing teams and translators, which has been expensive, but then obviously worth it to connect the audience more authentically. But honestly, the biggest thing is that the cultural taboos, has been huge.

So even when I started talking about this, like some of the TAs were, too, they were too embarrassed to talk to me, even though they have spent, you know, all day every day hanging out with me. They know all about everything we do. We know everything about each other, that was still not something that they felt super confident until everybody was interested and everybody came over, and to have a look and things like that. What I found really interesting is that me and my business partner, we interviewed 15, Khmer women about their periods. So these were my students when I, was an English conversation class teacher. So adult students in tech, so they were very intelligent, very, you know, well, well established women and listening to them talk about the cultural taboos around periods was absolutely fascinating. So they said things like when you're on your period, you're not allowed to eat bitter foods, sour foods, spicy food, or salty food, or pickled or preserved food, and Cambodians favourite food is sour mango, with chilli and so they were, all it's like, they were all crying about that they were like, I can't believe my mum doesn't let us eat this when we're on our period, kind of thing.

So I thought that was really crazy. It's like stopping us from eating chocolate in the western world, on our period, you'd be like, what! You can also not drink iced coffee or coconut, because this apparently might affect your period length, or heaviness, and it also can affect your beauty. So these are big cultural things that I had to, I really struggled with, and I was really shocked by when I was first talking about them. Apparently, as well, another one is that your period and your beauty are directly related. So you only can be beautiful if you have a healthy period, which I personally believe is a really, really toxic view, because actually your period is not necessarily reflective of anything like that, and your period can change in so many different ways for so many different reasons, that's a, that's a scary one, for sure. But for me, the most kind of powerful one was the one where they said when you get your period, you are now ready for marriage and children - like that's it. That's what happens once you've had your period, you are ready for marriage and children.

These were all huge things for me to, both emotionally and obviously commercially, overcome when starting a period business in a country where periods are not spoken about, periods are not considered clean, they are to do with your beauty and intelligence, and all of the other things that, there's a lot of falsities around it as well. But actually, for me, this has been a real big learning curve. And it's shown me that the period education is missing, and that's why we're going to provide it, another thing is that only one of the 15 girls that we interviewed could tell us why they got a period. So that again was a huge factor for me when we said actually we're not just going to make this a sustainable business, that solves a waste problem, we're going to make this a social impact thing and actually change, change these women's lives for the better, and actually help them learn about their bodies. Because once you know about your body, you have so much more increased confidence, you can actually go to the doctor, if you know there's a problem. If you've actually been told about it, all of these things that we don't even consider. But when there is this, these cultural taboos around this natural process that's happening, it really changes the way that people access information as well. So people just don't have the information to access is the biggest problem. So that's another thing that we're trying to solve.

Katherine Ann Byam 15:33
Yeah. No, that's great and the two things that you touched on that I think we haven't yet covered. So just for the for the benefit of my listeners, can you share why period panties are a thing today?

Sarah Udin 15:44
That's a very good point. Yeah, absolutely. So period, period pants. I actually don't love that term period panties. But the, UK, if I say period pants in this country, people think I'm talking about trousers. So I will call them period panties, or period underwear. But basically, they are this really amazing system where it looks like a normal pair of underwear. But each one of the underwear has got this special four layer system, the top layer is moisture wicking, so it keeps you nice and dry. So wicks away the moisture. The second layer is odour proof. So it' stops the smell. The third layer is super absorbent. And then the fourth layer is leak proof. So these four layers work together to keep you clean and dry for up to 12 hours.

This can be huge, especially for girls that, for example, can't afford to buy pads to wear, and they can actually go to school for the whole day. These can also be huge for people that don't want to create plastic waste, and also have any other problems with things inside their body or outside their body. So anybody that can't use a tampon or doesn't want to use a tampon for any reasons, the hugely beneficial solution as well. And in my opinion period underwear, period panties are better than reusable pads even because reusable pads move around. And as a person that does sports all day, every day, I need something that doesn't move around when I am moving around as well. So that's what period underwear is. I can also tell you kind of why I care about them so much as well, if you like I can tell you a little personal story. So for me period, underwear is such a passion because I've actually suffered from terrible periods for a very, very long time I started my period when I was 12.

And I was taking weeks off school from that time with really bad period pain, really heavy bleeding, really just a terrible experience. It gave me hormonal mood swings a lot of the time. And I've been on hormonal contraception since I was 12. Even despite this, I've had irregular erratic bleeding, sometimes up to two weeks at a time. And it's just been horrendous in terms of obviously, self esteem, it doesn't make you feel good when you can't understand what's happening to your body like this. But in terms of waste as well, this was huge, especially when I, in 2019 I read the Paris, the Paris treaty, and that was, that was a real turning point for me in terms of sustainability. It was before that, it had always been something that I was aware of, but for me, I was like in 2019 this is something I need to take charge of. So, I basically searched around and searched around and I found that you could have these period underwear and that saved me so much money and so much waste, it just, because when you suffer like that you can't help but use so many tampons and so many pads, so for me period underwear was just an absolute lifesaver. I know that not everybody has such a terrible experience with their period, but it's something that you don't even realise how life changing it can be until you try it.

So that is basically the, for me as well though period underwear is so important because actually plastic pads and tampons are not a good solution. At the moment in Cambodia, over 80% of women use plastic pads. Tampons are not used over here, because if you use a tampon, then it's considered to lose your virginity. So it's not part of the culture to use tampons, so pads, I will, I can talk about pads. And in Cambodia alone there's over 1 billion pads thrown away each year, one person can throw away up to 150 to 200 pads themselves per year. And 80% of a pad is made out of plastic. And these can take up to 800 years to decompose. So this is obviously a big issue. We need to be solving and period underwear as, is a solution to that. And it's a really good solution that's actually really good for your body as well. Because not only is plastic bad for the environment, surprise, plastic is bad for your body as well. So if you're putting plastic pads up against your vulva for extended periods of time, it can actually lead to an increase in cancer and other terribly terrifying diseases. So actually, this is a very good solution in terms of vaginal health as well, especially if girls are using pads for a really long time. Bacterial infections, especially in a hot humid country like this, are rife. So it kind of solves all of the problems there's, there's no discomfort, you feel clean, you feel dry, your, your, the smell is protected. You can do all of the things.

Katherine Ann Byam 16:59
What would you say have been your successes so far?

Sarah Udin 19:53
I would say probably, obviously the biggest success would be, we've actually sold over 500 pairs of underwear since we started last year, so that is huge. This was exactly on target, for me, that was exactly the goal. And that was, I was really pleased about that. So that's been huge. We also had a really, really successful first big donation event, where we have donated 60 pairs of underwear to a village in a place called Stone Minjae in, just outside of Phnom Penh, whereas basically, it's a, it's a village, run by the Cambodia Children's Fund, and the world housing organisation, and it's called the girls to Granny's village. And there's 200 females that live there, and they're kind of from any age, up to Granny's age. And they all live together in a community. And we thought that would be a really good first place for us to do our donations.

Just because that's the safe space for us to talk about periods. And it's a good place for us to make sure it's a female safe environment. So we had such success. We had such a good time, we had a really successful period education workshop, and at the end, the girls all had questions about, you know, is this normal? Oh, my gosh, are you sure? And you could see the, the smiles on their faces just by saying, yeah, no, that's normal, this is fine. And we realised then that that was a form that they just had never had, because a lot of these girls don't necessarily live with their own parents as well. So they wouldn't have had that conversation with their mum to say, Hey, Mum, is this normal? So that was, that felt really amazing to actually say, this is a way that we're able to give back to our community. By providing this sustainable solution to people, we're actually also able to put massive smiles on girls faces as well. So that's been absolutely huge.

Now, another massive success that I had was actually when I expanded the team. And I am just gonna very quickly talk about my business partner, Angelique, who joined last year in October. So she's a brand strategist and UX design consultant. And she's from South Africa, she's got experience running her own business. And she's also worked as a teacher before, and she basically is in charge of everything creative. So she has been my brain behind the change from Athena to Aluna to Amala. And she's basically now transformed us into a brand that really resonates with my audience. So that has been a huge success, as well as in the rebranding with Angelique has been huge. The only thing is, we still don't have a Khmer team member, so we really, we really, really would love to have somebody Cambodian on our team as well, because it doesn't feel right that we're trying to connect with a Cambodian audience without actually having people on the team. So we've been working with our Cambodian friends, our Khmer friends, we still haven't found that, you know, that trifecta effect, we haven't found our, the missing piece of our triangle.

Katherine Ann Byam 22:28
Congratulations. I think that's really great news, and very proud of your success, and happy to have seen it grow. Because I've been working with you for just under a year, I guess is for some time.

Sarah Udin 22:38
I think that's when I joined the community, was when I was like, Oh, I'm gonna be a woman in sustainable business. And my friend Decra was part of the group. And so she recommended, so yeah, so you've been on this journey with me the whole time. And you've watched it go from Athena to Aluna to Amala. And now we are definitely sticking with Amala. Because the Amala means clean, or lack of impure, in Sanskrit. So yeah, that one really resonates with me and the audience so much.

Katherine Ann Byam 23:05
That's really great. So the next question is going to take us to another angle of your experience in Cambodia and some, and around the whole sustainability topic. Now, just to, for the audience listening, I've also been to Cambodia just once, I went for a weekend to Siem Reap, because I heard I had to see Angkor Wat if I was in that area. So I flew from Malaysia to Cambodia. And I was shocked when I arrived because we stayed in this five star hotel, very plush place with loads of people waiting and serving you. And when you looked out the window across the street, there was this floating village where the rest of the people lived without proper sanitation, without a lot of things that you would consider very normal in the West, in the Western world. And I couldn't understand how this could coexist. How this place of abject poverty can coexist with this five star hotel, like it made no sense to me at all that this could be happening. And then we took a bus journey from Siem Reap route to Phnom Penh and I have never seen so much waste on the streets, as in Cambodia, at that time, I mean, I'm sure there are other places that that struggle as well with this, but I was really shocked and impressed, in a bad way perhaps, of the level of waste and rubbish and lack of cleanliness, as we talk about, about being clean. So I wanted to touch on this because I think you being there in Cambodia, in this time is relevant for so many reasons, I wanted you to reflect on what you've seen in terms of big corporations and how are they being socially relevant to the people of Cambodia today?

Sarah Udin 24:51
That is, yeah, absolutely, spot on. I would say I had a very similar experience. I first came to Cambodia nine years ago and I was absolutely shocked by the amount of trash. But then I, I don't remember it being any more than there was in Thailand or in Laos, I just remember being shocked in general, how much trash there was this side of the world. At that time now, obviously, it's now nine years later, and lots has changed. But I am going to be honest with you, the trash problem hasn't really changed. They have only recently started with waste management companies here in the city of Phnom Penh, which is, of course, the capital city of the country. And there was actually recently a strike. So within the last year, there was just a strike, and all the trash collectors stopped working. And you really saw the problem at that point, because they didn't collect trash for a week. And there were piles bigger than houses, it was extremely shocking, because Cambodia is a dumping ground for the rest of the world as well as its own citizens. So recycled waste, it doesn't get recycled, it gets shipped to Cambodia, and it gets dumped in Cambodia anywhere, it gets dumped on the side of the streets in Cambodia.

So there's already a problem. And so I think that, I don't know this, but my personal opinion is that maybe when you're overloaded with that amount of trash, it is very difficult to see how your own personal impact can or your, your own personal choices can make an impact. Because actually, if there's piles of trash bigger than your house, and you're thinking about whether or not you should try and recycle that one plastic bottle, it's a really, really confusing feeling. Because we all know, we should, we should be creating the least waste possible, we need to be absolutely reducing, reducing, reducing, but it's really difficult when there is no running water that's drinkable. And your only option is to go and buy a bottle that has been created by these big corporations that just don't care and could actually be creating different options, maybe reusable fountains and reusable, there are solutions possible that they could choose to channel their money into instead, like setting up vending machines that actually you just fill your bottle, and you could even have branded everything in that same way.

But they're, I don't know, that's, that's a little bit of a tangent anyway. But that's just a idea. But I would say yeah, absolutely. The waste management problem is still huge. And recycling, there is only one glass recycling plant in the whole city, in the whole country. And so we have to ship it from Phnom Penh. And we have to pay for that. So those are kind of big issues. But in terms of big corporations, I would say stop sending your waste to Cambodia, please stop creating things that are wasteful, because when they are the only option available, it's not fair, it's really not fair make make there be different options available for people that don't have access to running water and don't have access to drinking water. Don't give the, this as the only option. I would say that basically the infrastructure in Cambodia is amazing. It just needs a lot of investment. And Cambodia in general needs a lot of investment it needs a lot of development it is still very much a developing country in development. And there's loads of growth opportunities here. But people need to actually invest in things that are going to be sustainable, long term. Because at the moment, there is a throwaway culture here. And it's being perpetuated by these big corporations that are just saying by this, quick, try and become more like the West, quick, when actually this is an opportunity for big corporations to choose to do it a different way. So they could choose to actually say, hey, we've seen how much we've messed up over here in the UK and in France and in Germany and in the US and in Australia. How about this time, we do it differently. And we don't destroy the environment, every single aspect just by trying to, because you can still make profit, this is the thing, they can still make profit without destroying the environment. So maybe those are the, I got more emotional about that than I thought I would actually.

Katherine Ann Byam 28:39
I totally support your points, when I see big corporations trying to make change and come up with something innovative and pioneering etc. They start in places like Japan and South Korea more because they're trendsetting, then because they're relevant. And there's so many relevant situations that we can do tests in and we can change the protocols. And we can do something that really allows people to live a more fruitful life without going through the same loops that we went through in the west of learning, right. And it's disappointing that it's not pursued enough. So I totally support you. The other thing I want to sort of pivot to is if you could receive any funding now, what would you prioritise?

Sarah Udin 29:19
Haha, I mean, I have a list longer than my arm obviously, of all of the things that I would need to prioritise. But I don't know, I think probably the first in my opinion, the first thing that I would like to properly invest in if we got a big amount would be investing in designing and manufacturing our own period underwear here, because that obviously leads to job creation that's better controll of the quality, much more increased profit margins and way more sustainable in terms of packaging, shipping, all of the things that I would be in full control of, so that would be my main priority, and that's something that we are definitely talking about with other local sustainable businesses in Cambodia. So we have started that conversation. We are very excited, we are now just trying to find the funding for. And the other thing we are looking for is actually we're planning on developing an English and Khmer period app to make our information much more accessible. So that would be another thing that we, would put some investment money into. Because I think that those are really the key points, it's making sure that we're being the most ethical and sustainable we possibly can be and actually creating this education platform that actually does serve the community in a productive way. So those would be my main priorities. And also, being able to pay us some salaries at some point might be nice perhaps, purchasing some stock in bulk, hiring a Khmer person, I can go on. Those would be I think, the most exciting things to actually spend the money on, and they would definitely be some of our priorities as a team.

Katherine Ann Byam 30:46
Perfect. So what I want to ask now, how could my listeners support you given that the majority of my listeners are not, yet, Cambodian? Maybe I will get some after this interview.

Sarah Udin 30:56
Absolutely. I mean, the best way to probably support us from the UK is talking to people about sustainable periods. That's, that's our message is let's have sustainable periods. But for real for real, you can go to our website, www dot Amala periods.com. We have a donation button that's there and available. We are also planning on shipping worldwide shortly. So we, once we have that all set up on the website, you will be able to purchase our sustainable period products on our website. So we will have period underwear, reusable pads, cups, and also waterproof pouches for all of those things. And they will all be available and beautiful and sustainable. And available for sale online. You can also like us on Facebook and Instagram. And we will soon be releasing a Tik Tok. So you can also find us on there. And any kind of liking, sharing, supporting, commenting is always really helpful for small businesses. So anything like that would be amazing.

Katherine Ann Byam 31:53
Wonderful, Sarah, it's been such a pleasure to have you. I have loved your story and your transformation and your growth over the last year. And I just want to see it continue. So all the best wishes. We're going to chat again very soon this week. But, But best of luck for the future.

Sarah Udin 32:09
Thank you so much. And Katherine, I honestly, I must say I couldn't have done it without you. You have been an absolute rock in my journey on this. So thank you so much.

Katherine Ann Byam 32:17
This podcast is brought to you today by the brand new women in sustainable business awards that kicks off in 2023. If you're a business owner who's starting a business with principles of sustainability in mind, and you want to preserve some lost skills, some handcraftin, artisinal work, or you're a social media manager supporting purposel driven brands, or you're creating fashion or something that is relevant to the sustainability and green transformation. You are more than welcome to join us and to get involved in these awards. Check out our group on Facebook women in sustainable business, or follow the podcast where ideas launch on Instagram to find out more.

079 Do What Matters

About this Episode

Do what matters… today and for your future. You are more than your ego, and this is your moment to own that, whatever it means to you, and do something purposeful with it. Career transitioning on purpose is more than a suite of skills you can gain mastery over, It’s a way of life.

This career guide is for people in leadership, management, consulting, change programmes, projects, freelancers or contractors working within medium to large organisations.

Your voice has never had a more powerful sound, than when it’s coming from a place deep within. Let’s learn how to use that to have a greater impact. Doing what matters also means getting things fantastically wrong, before things change at times. The key is in the long game.

Explore a wide range of perspectives with me on this journey.

You will:

Take charge of your career and your why.
Gain skills and momentum needed to sustain changes from where you are.
Create meaningful integration between your values and work

Katherine Ann Byam is an author, sustainability activist, coach and consultant for business resilience and sustainable change, partnering with leaders committed to a shared future.”

A professional with 20+years change leadership experience in the FTSE Top 10, she started her consulting firm in 2019 to support sustainable development within SMEs. Katherine holds an MBA with distinction, specialising in Innovation Management as well as certificates in ESG, digital strategy, and sustainability management from established universities. She’s also a Fellow of the Association of Certified Chartered Accountants.

She’s the host of the internationally acclaimed Where Ideas Launch - Sustainable Innovation Podcast, ranked among the top 5% globally, achieving the top spot in 5 countries, and the top 10 in 19 separate charts. As a sought after leadership and career transition coach and keynote speaker, she facilitates workshops and learning sessions for communities within global brands such as Amazon, Women Tech Global, ACCA, Stryker, Speak Up, Mind Channel and more.

She loves spending her spare time in nature, walking the western and southern coasts of the UK, France and Tobago, or on the Northern and eastern coasts of Trinidad with her partner Christophe.

Subscribe to Where Ideas Launch

Connect with Katherine

Episode Transcript

Katherine Ann Byam 0:00
I think my favourite exercise when I started this book with my book coach was to write the publishers headline, and think about what I'd want people to say about the book. So this is what I wrote, you, tell me what you think, insightful, unconventional, structured, and providing the reader with a framework that flexes to their needs and individual contexts and encompasses storytelling, practical advice and coaching in one comprehensive stream of thought, and provides you with the tools to make those tough career decisions with greater ease. It is a remarkably easy, yet thought provoking read. I cannot tell you the feeling and excitement you get when you produce something that could potentially even have something close to that sort of review. And I feel really proud that this book today, is ready for a mass audience.

This is season five, the great debates of our times, Season Five will be centred around the great debates. And we will be comparing and contrasting different viewpoints on various topics that are consuming the public discourse at present. The reason I've decided to take this approach is because we, or at least many of us, are losing the skill of debate. And I think this is an essential skill for us all to practice once more. I don't see how we get to the point of saving the world and saving our planet. If we don't know how to discuss our differences. I also think that the solution to most of our challenges is somewhere in the spectrum of views, but never a type of extreme. I will be working with guests to curate the content and discuss beforehand, I will understand their positions, their areas of genius, and navigate my questions around that so that the conversation is challenging and stimulating. Without being combative. I hope you enjoy season five of where ideas launch; the Sustainable Innovation podcast. T

hree years ago, I started a journey to build an independent business built around my strengths, the needs of the planet, my passions, and my economic needs. Very much the ikigai of Japanese philosophy. That business had a clear roadmap, build a digital transformation consultancy using skills I already had in change management, and my partner in IT and data science, and then integrate sustainability into the practice, as I learned more about it myself. Life, though had other plans. After the pandemic hit, I naturally gravitated to fill in two voids that I found opening up making career transitions on purpose, was the first, and starting businesses with ethical and triple bottom line values, as the second. I started my first career transition programme in the summer of 2020, and became the leader of the women in sustainable business community on Facebook in October of that year. Since then, I've met and had business collaborations and relationships with hundreds of people, all of whom have shared rich experiences with me that I've integrated it into my courses and programmes as well as the series of books I will be releasing into the wild over the next three years. Book One is called 'Do what matters: the purpose driven career transition guide'. And it is a blueprint for supporting you with making a strategic shift to include more of your concerns about the planet we share, I want to take this opportunity to share with you the outline of the book, and to advise that it will be available on or after the 22nd of July, along with a podcast of the same name. I'm really excited about this work. And it's taken a lot to produce it. But it's been immensely rewarding. Here's the table of content, I start with what is purpose? And this is an interesting conversation to have at this point in time in our world. Because businesses are talking about it, people are talking about it. And we're not entirely sure where it's going to all land. We're starting to learn more and more about science, we still have philosophy on our side, we still have religion, and these ethical and moral debates that are influencing our perception of what purpose might be. So let's get into how to find your own. The book is then shaped into an introduction section and three parts. In the introduction, I present to you the context and the case study for change. Here I talk about the planetary dimension, the socio economic dimension, and governing the system as a whole. These are all fascinating and interrelated concepts and as we start getting into the complexity, I think it really starts to open doors as to how much opportunity there really is, if we were to take the deliberate step toward more purpose. Part one is about your environment and you and your pathway to self mastery amidst all of these rolling tides. So chapter one we talk about if it's important, build a model. So creating a conscious self improvement plan. Chapter Two is 'who are you really?' and how to begin your own journey of self discovery. Chapter three, we talk about career models. These are the types of career paths that you could attempt to deliver on your purpose. And I have to say that it isn't restricted to sustainably driven careers. This really is about any sort of path that you want to take. And what I would actually advise is to blend your paths. So make sure that you're doing enough of all the things that give you that feeling of completion. Chapter four is the constant leaner and developing a growth and net-positive mindset. A net-positive is something that I want to help people to embrace because I think we need to go further than net zero if we're actually going to hit any of the targets that we've set for ourselves. Chapter five is about your goals needing conscious action, and how to take action towards your purpose. Chapter six, is a nine step career transition framework. And this one is where I sum up all of the things that we're going to cover overall, for the whole book, even though it's coming in at chapter six. The reason it's coming here is that I think you need to appreciate everything that's come before it before you appreciate what these steps really mean. Part Two goes into social credible and responsible you, and how to show up, build an audience and become an advocate for change. In chapter seven, we talk about 'what's the point of your job really?', and why you do what you do not from your perspective, but from that of the business. In chapter eight, we talk about persuasion, influence and manipulation, and how we get others to follow or lead, and whether or not we feel right about doing so. In chapter nine, we talk about money and wealth, because I think any conversation about sustainability needs to deal with money and wealth. And then in chapter ten, we look at your digital twin, and how you show up credibly and responsibly in the spaces that you're interacting in online, chapter elevn, we bust some HR myths. We want to improve in general, the human resource management landscape, or at least your understanding of it. So I want to touch on some really important points here, that may implicate how you go about doing what you have to do. Part three, we get into 'jump but controlling the landing', and governing that first 90 days. And the first chapter in the section is about onboarding. So this is navigating your new job and the change agenda by understanding what's fundamentally important to what will come next for you. In chapter thirteen, we talk about habits and context and creating a compelling mission driven personnel playbook. And this is something where you blend the past playbook that you had that had made you successful, with what your understanding now about the world and the change that you need to make. So this is going to take some integration of the learning that we've done together. In chapter fourteen, we talk about how to create the perfect pitch, and how to earn in funding for your projects and your innovations, regardless of what type of role you're doing. In chapter fifteen, we want to talk about being better than average, but not perfect. And whether or not that's good enough. In chapter sixteen we're dealing with duds and explosives. So this is about the toxic boss, or the weak boss, and how that affects the culture of the company that you're in. And then we talk about the support needed for your journey and how to know if coaching or related services are right for you in any way. The final close will come in the epilogue, and this looks towards the aligned mission and the net-positive action toward the future. And then I finally close with an afterword to tell you about the other projects that are coming up soon. So I really look forward to this project. Being live at the end of July, there's still a lot of work to do. But thank you for your support and your ongoing encouragement. And I do hope that you enjoy it. Do get in touch with me on LinkedIn, on Facebook, follow me. Let me know if you've got the book, if you've read it. Give us our reviews on Amazon or wherever you found the book. And we'd love to hear from you, any thoughts or interesting insights that came up for you as you did these exercises. Thank you so much for your support.

This podcast is brought to you today by the brand new women in sustainable business awards that kicks off in 2023. If you're a business owner who's starting a business with principles of sustainability in mind, and you want to preserve some lost skills, some handcrafting, artisinal work, or you're a social media manager supporting purpose driven brands, or you're creating fashion or something that is relevant to the sustainability and green transformation. You are more than welcome to join us and to get involved in these awards. Check out our group on Facebook women in sustainable business, or follow the podcast where ideas launch on Instagram to find out more.

078 -Youth Perspectives 1: Food Security with Belinda Ng

About this Episode

Belinda is a youth environmentalist from Hong Kong currently pursuing the MSc in Environmental Technology at Imperial College London. Passionate about driving sustainable food system transformation, she co-founded ConsciousEats, a mobile app connecting climate-conscious consumers to sustainable eateries in London. She is also one of 30 selected global youth leaders behind the global Act4Food Act4Change campaign, a global youth-led movement taking action to create a global food system which provides everyone with access to safe, affordable and nutritious diets, while simultaneously protecting nature, tackling climate change and promoting human rights. She is also a member of the World Ocean Day Youth Advisory Council and YOUNGO Agriculture working group. In her home city of Hong Kong, she co-founded youth-led Hong Kong-based podcast 'Sustain-a-pod', which empowers high school students to engage in direct dialogue with sustainability activists and professionals across different sectors.

Subscribe to Where Ideas Launch

Connect with Belinda

Episode Transcript

Katherine Ann Byam 0:01
Belinda Ng, is a client, friend and inspiration to me, she's one of at least four youth perspectives I will be bringing to you over the coming weeks on the topic of sustainable transformation. In this clip, she shares her thoughts on employment at major corporations listen to it now.

Belinda Ng 0:17
The question that comes up for me is how much of this is really embedded within what they're doing? And it's true to their core purpose? Or is it really just, you know, controversial greenwashing. And that they're just kind of saying this, because it's kind of part of a cool, trendy thing that all companies are doing now. And they can have a lot of money to market themselves in this way. But I think actually, I'm more hopeful than I am cautious. There's the cautious element is more that it's making sure I still have that critical mindset that my education has really shaped me to have to not just take things at face value, but really try and explore deeper; ask critical questions.

Katherine Ann Byam 1:00
This is season five, the great debates of our times, Season Five will be centred around the great debates. And we will be comparing and contrasting different viewpoints on various topics that are consuming the public discourse at present. The reason I've decided to take this approach is because we, or at least many of us, are losing the skill of debate. And I think this is an essential skill for us all to practice once more. I don't see how we get to the point of saving the world and saving our planet. If we don't know how to discuss our differences. I also think that the solution to most of our challenges is somewhere in the spectrum of views, but never a type of extreme. I will be working with guests to curate the content and discuss beforehand. I will understand their positions, their areas of genius, and navigate my questions around that so that the conversation is challenging and stimulating without being combative. I hope you enjoy season five of where ideas launch the Sustainable Innovation podcast.

Belinda is a youth environmentalist from Hong Kong, currently pursuing her MSc in Environmental Technology at Imperial College in London. She's passionate about driving sustainable food system transformation. And she co founded conscious eats a mobile app connecting climate conscious consumers to sustainable eateries in London. She's also one of forty selected global youth leaders behind the global act for food act for Change Campaign, a global youth led movement taking action to create a global food system which provides everyone with access to safe, affordable and nutritious diets while simultaneously protecting nature. In her home city of Hong Kong. She co founded youth led, Hong Kong based podcast Sustainer pod, which empowers high school students to engage in direct dialogue with sustainability activists and professionals across different sectors. Belinda, welcome to where ideas launch.

Belinda Ng 2:55
Thank you for having me, Kathy. I'm very excited to be here.

Katherine Ann Byam 2:57
I'm really excited to have you. Belinda, we met at a Kelp-a-thon, a hackathon organised by Carbon Kapture back in July 2021. You were one of the prize winners and a keen enthusiast on the changes we need to see, in sort of carbon sequestration, tell me why sustainability has become a passion for you. And when.

Belinda Ng 3:17
I think I became passionate about environmental issues first before I became passionate about sustainability, because honestly, I only really came to fully understand what sustainability encompased, as such a multifaceted term, in the past couple of years. But growing up when I was younger, in Hong Kong, where 40% of the land area is designated as country parks. I spent my weekends you know, in the nature, hiking, I did a lot of windsurfing, and a lot of the time that I spent, you know, on the ocean or in the forest hiking gave me a firsthand glimpse into very prominent environmental problems like plastic pollution on the beaches and in the water, or issues with air pollution, noise pollution, and other, yeah, environmental issues. So that kind of spurred up my interest in like understanding what we can actually do to address these issues. And then when I came to study geography and my undergrad degree at Cambridge, the course was a very critical look into sustainability issues facing our planet globally and also at various different skills in different contexts. And the more I understood it, the more I realised it was actually a very multifaceted problem. It wasn't just the environment, but it concerned human society, planetary health and various complicated interlinked issues. And so that's kind of what started kind of my interest in sustainability as a concept. And the thing that really made it a passion for me was the fundamentally human focus for sustainability. I think there's a lot that you need to deliver for the planet by first focusing on the people I'm having volunteered a lot with vulnerable populations and groups on, both in my home city of Hong Kong and then in different parts of China, especially with farming communities. I came to firsthand understand how, for example, climate change affects food security very directly. And that really, really generated that passion for me that we have to do something for the people on the planet together.

Katherine Ann Byam 5:12
Yeah, thank you for that. And I really love so many things that you've said. But in reading your bio as well, that you spoke about food and how central food is to what you do. And I was recently looking at the project draw down I don't know if you've seen this list, but the project draw down list of actions that we could take to to reduce greenhouse gases in the atmosphere. And actually reducing food waste was the number one that we can do to keep within two degrees. It's so potent to see that it's so important yet, we just kind of take it for granted. Right? So tell me a little bit about that journey around food in particular. And I know this wasn't a question I prepared you for.

Belinda Ng 5:53
Yeah, for sure. It was also a very recent kind of journey that I've embarked on, because I always knew I was kind of generally interested. But it was only really in the past couple of years. I think the main kind of trigger, I guess, for what really made me think that, okay, food is something that should be considered in the bigger climate debate was, as I mentioned, that volunteering experience, because I had been visiting these communities for over 10 years. And in the past couple of years, when I had visited, the last time around was about three years ago, the communities there, particularly the younger children who would help out on the farms would tell me a lot about how recently there were like droughts, and there were kind of heat waves that have really affected their ability to produce. And so that's when I started looking into more of the production side with agriculture. And that being the most directly impacted by climatic changes. So that's when I really started caring about food. But then I started to, like, look, and really for myself and think about well, that's a really big, you know, systems - so I feel like agriculture is such a complicated process, what can I do as an individual. So that's when I turned to look at the more consumption side. And then yeah, as you mentioned, correctly with the whole food waste thing, it's a very, this is something that happens at the household level, it happens in restaurants it happens, at a city wide level. And so that, the fact that food is something that's so cultural, and so social, but also so connected to the environment was a very interesting thing for me to explore. And the more I explore it, the more I realise how it can be so important for this whole shift to sustainability that we really need.

Katherine Ann Byam 7:27
Yeah, it's interesting. You said that sustainability so multifaceted. And that's exactly how this conversation is going to go. Because you keep mentioning things that made me want to explore a bit more. And you talked about kids. And this is something that is close to my heart, in some ways, because I've also had the experience of travelling quite a lot and seeing kids on farms. And actually, I don't know, and this is where I'm going to potentially sound a bit controversial. I don't know that it's such a problem that kids work on farms, I actually thought they were getting such a much better education than I had in some ways. And they were so keen to participate, to contribute. And of course, you don't want to take them away from their education, and you want to make sure that there is balance in all of that, but this idea of kids working the farm and helping the family and having that sort of nucleus and that sort of, that sort of process where people understand that the food that they eat is coming from somewhere. To me that felt very important. I don't know how you felt about experiencing that.

Belinda Ng 8:37
Yeah, definitely. I think I fully agree with what you said, in the sense that they're receiving another kind of education, they understand so much about how plants grow, what the seasons are for different crops, in many ways compared to maybe let's say, a child that grew up in the city, they're so much more in tune with nature, and they know so much about the value of nature, because they they rely on this for their food security and for their for their family and everything. So I agree with you definitely. And I think also, well, I guess it depends as well on kind of, this would be very context specific as well, one major issue I definitely have with people growing up in the city is that you can be very disconnected with where your food comes from. And there is a huge debate now about you know, urban farming and really bringing people back to the roots to understand exactly what it is like, the Earth, the importance of the soil, all the stuff that comes with regenerative farming, because for so many people, this is so disconnected. And we also live in an era from a health standpoint where there's a lot of processed food, and so there's that strong health angle as well. So I definitely agree with what you're saying. And yeah, I guess the main difference is that food security definitely manifests very differently in these two kind of city - urban contexts versus rural context. Yeah, maybe that lines being blurred.

Katherine Ann Byam 9:56
Yeah, I absolutely agree with that. And, you know, it gives me pause. Because I, I want to join these global movements that, you know, advocate for, you know, no child labour, etc. But I think it's way more complicated as is the whole topic of sustainability. It's way more complicated than a ticking the box exercise and everything needs to be system and context specific. So really great conversation. Thank you for, thank you for contributing on that. So I want to move to another tack, which is that you've been studying at Imperial, and you were recently offered an internship at a consultancy firm. But I wanted to ask a more general question. What makes you cautious about working with big companies?

Belinda Ng 10:37
That's a really, yeah, that was a really interesting question. I think, for me, the main thing is, and I guess maybe this is something that also my peers in my age group, who are also increasingly quite aware of the various environmental and social issues that we have to tackle, is the main thing is the promises and commitments that they make to sustainability, I definitely think that the question that comes up for me is how much of this is really embedded within what they're doing? And it's true to their core purpose? Or is it really just, you know, controversial greenwashing. And that they're just kind of saying this, because it's kind of part of a cool, trendy thing that all companies are doing now. And they can have a lot of money to market themselves in this way. But I think actually, I'm more hopeful than I am cautious. There's the cautious element is more that it's making sure I still have that critical mindset that my education has really shaped me to have to not just take things at face value, but really try and explore deeper ask, critical questions. I think I'm more hopeful, because I know there's a lot being done internally now to transform organisations by very driven and passionate individuals within these big companies and other size companies as well.

Katherine Ann Byam 11:53
It's a good point that you make again, because when I talk to different groups of people, you know, I have a community of women in sustainable business, who are small businesses, trying to do things differently, social impact entrepreneurs, etc. And also, I have a career group. And when I talk to these different groups, the vibe around this topic of greenwashing is quite different. And what's interesting, so looking from the outside, so those of my communities who have perhaps not worked within the context of the big organisations, looking from the outside, they tend to quickly blacklist a large organisation for greenwashing. And when I talk to people who work in big organisations and perhaps work in the space, you kind of understand that there's a huge passion and commitment to the planet for those who are working in that specific space. So those working in CSR, those working in social impact, and, and, and working on innovations, perhaps. So you understand that actually, with big organisations, again, like with everything else we're discussing today, it's not black and white. It's, it's there's a lot of complexity involved. There are a lot of silos involved, especially with multinational corporations that span several different countries. And it's difficult to figure out, like, what exactly can I call out here as greenwashing versus what is, what is a genuine effort that's just being lost in a lack of I don't know, coordination. And so it's interesting to really see how that really plays out in the minds of people.

Belinda Ng 13:34
Yeah I agree. I think a lot of young people, especially those that are more considered activists, they late they like to call out these companies like you're not doing enough, like this is all fake. I think that's definitely one approach that you can use to really ensure that greenwashing can, doesn't happen, and there's, you know, increased transparency and credibility with what big companies are doing. But another hand, I've recently also heard a different view, which is that actually, greenwashing can be very helpful in the way that it's almost like a temporary transition phase. Like, the bottom line is that all big companies are now aware that this is an issue, there is pressure coming from different stakeholders that they need to do something. So whether or not you know, company A matches up to what company B is doing, there's still that internal recognition that something has to be done and whether or not that is something that is happening right at this very moment that matches up to what is expected. I think that time will tell but it is still quite promising. So I'm still quite hopeful, even though that there is this controversial element involved.

Katherine Ann Byam 14:37
Yeah, I agree with you. It's, it's definitely a challenge. And I think, yeah, we need to keep the pressure but we also need to keep the perspective I guess, and it's it's difficult. It's a difficult balance. And I can't say that there's one right approach which which is kind of what I like about the space if I'm being honest. You can really find your way. So I want to move again and this one is more around, I'd say, the sort of personal impact all of this is having on people in your age group. And I know you can't speak for everyone in your age group, but, but if you can make an assessment of how people are handling the climate crisis, and what is sort of the spectrum of reactions you've personally experienced from people in your age group that you might want to share with us today?

Belinda Ng 15:26
Yeah, sure, I think there's a full spectrum, there's honestly complete ignorance, like, I'm just gonna enjoy the present and enjoy my life. And then there's also like the complete opposite, which is essentially eco anxiety to different levels and just feeling a lot of anxiety, sometimes anger, frustration, sadness, worries about what's going to happen within our lifetimes. And that I understand a lot of the fact that that comes from increased access and exposure to news as well, social media, especially, those can get very concentrated if you're working or studying in the environmental space, where there are a lot of scary harrowing statistics that come out, you know, all the time with new scientific publications and international conferences and stuff. So there's definitely a full spectrum. I think, for me, in the sense, because I'm studying environmental sustainability degree, a lot of my friends definitely are more towards the eco anxiety side. And I definitely think it's almost like the more you know, the severity of the situation and the need to action, the more you have that greater tendency to be worried about it. So I think the main kind of thing that, that's been on my mind is that the systems change that's really required to tackle this climate crisis is really the scary part because we really need to see cooperation and, you know, intergenerational dialogue, or across different stakeholders across different countries. But it seems like given the other, the current political, social, economic contexts that are happening in the world right now, it seems very difficult. So the main challenge is remaining hopeful and optimistic. And I think that will really help to, I guess, alleviate some of the eco anxiety that's currently on that, that more scary, sad side of the spectrum, when it comes to how people are handling the climate crisis.

Katherine Ann Byam 17:15
Yeah. And what would you say are your strategies for dealing with eco anxiety? And ask this kind of tongue in cheek because, yeah, I think I also struggle. So what do you do to sort of help you along?

Belinda Ng 17:29
I definitely think being involved or engaged with organisations and individuals that are doing fantastic role work in the space, and really trying to immerse myself more in really positive news. So for example, there's recently I was reading a really optimistic uplifting article about the role of forests. And it this is also very, you know, we can't tell the future. But it was a very positive article about a success in a very specific context, I think, little things like that, and just not trying to carry the weight of the world on my own shoulders, but really being inspired by knowing that there are amazing people around the world who are working on really changing the way we live right now, and changing regulations and working in companies and boardrooms, to really incite change that really inspires me and motivates me.

Katherine Ann Byam 18:20
That's perfect. I love that response. Thank you so much. If I had a listener from a prominent organisation that you'd like to work with, who would it be?

Belinda Ng 18:28
This is a very timely question, and also quite a challenging one. Because am I allowed to be really, really greedy, and kind of give more general responses? Because I'm honestly not targeting one specific company. I'm definitely keeping a very open minded. I'm very interested in environmental consultancy. So I guess ERM. Other big four kind of consulting firms that are working on, in the sustainability space, I would be super interested in. But also, in terms of more a general topic focused thing if your company is working on any aspect of the food systems, for example, like in house with, like Unilever and Nestle, large f&b companies, I'd be really interested to explore in house work. And I guess a final bucket. So I'm being really greedy here. But like I've been really interested in like responsible investing space and kind of the food tech space. So definitely keen to learn more about opportunities in this sector as well.

Katherine Ann Byam 19:28
And how do you feel about entrepreneurship as an option for you? And I ask this question, because I've noticed a shift to definitely in terms of your general age group, sort of coming out of university and thinking, you know what, I want to start a green tech startup. I want to start this company right from the start. So what are your, what are your thoughts about that? And especially as I know that you're already involved in some in some ventures,

Belinda Ng 19:55
So personally, I love entrepreneurship. I think it's one of the key ways that we can come together and bring people together to tackle current and sustainability issues. I think for me, it's definitely something that I see, in my lifetime that is going to happen. But in terms of whether or not that happens right now, I'm honestly not as sure, I can definitely see it happening at some point, because I can envision that that is where I maybe want to end up. And I think the kind of hesitance that I get from not, you know, maybe not launching, jumping into it right now, is that entrepreneurship is kind of conventionally been seen as, like something that young people do. And this is the thing that you should kind of take the risks now before you have to like settle and, and all those kind of narratives. But I think I recently went to a startup Demo Day with investors. And I spoke to a lot of really cool entrepreneurs working in the climate space, and a lot of them actually were in like their 40s. And sometimes some of them even in their 50s. And the reason why they were able to really succeed and you know, persuade the investors for investment and to show that they are the right fit to lead that startup was exactly because they had worked in, maybe for big corporates or in house or, and had really extensive careers. That meant they had the network's they needed to basically launch their product and access the market. And I think that really changed my perspective on like, maybe it's something I don't have to do like, right this moment, to really succeed. And I mean, given the fact that it is such a challenging thing, you really need to have so much perseverance and, and resilience to succeed. Maybe it is better to not just jump into it unless you know, that I think separating your, your passion, your passion projects, and your something that can really be a viable, profitable company is very, very important. So I think, yeah, so my bottom line is I love entrepreneurship, and I can see it in my future, but I'm not sure if I see it right now.

Katherine Ann Byam 21:58
Fair response. So what topics are you currently exploring on sustainapod?

Belinda Ng 22:04
Oh, exciting question. We're recording season three right now. And there's, this season is quite different from the previous two, because it is less focused on purely environmental aspects of sustainability, but going into the social component, as well. So we had a social focus on mental health and eating disorders and body image and what that kind of means in relation to like personal well being in a time when, you know, as we discussed earlier, there's eco anxiety and all these other kind of mental issues going around. So that's something to look forward to, and also exploring more entrepreneurship as well. So particularly in the food space, and also with social entrepreneurship, in from a like a development context for sustainability, which in many cases actually align. So for example, so plenty of startups in, in the African region are now working on, you know, electrifying and bringing electricity to rural communities in a renewable, sustainable way. So I think that's a really great promising, like, Win Win way that we can work on both the social and environmental side of like, yeah, for the planet right now.

Katherine Ann Byam 23:13
How can my listeners reach out to you?

Belinda Ng 23:15
Please drop me a message on LinkedIn, you can find me just with my name, or you can email me at Belinda T. wng@gmail.com.

Katherine Ann Byam 23:23
Perfect. Thank you so much for joining me today. Belinda. I'm really excited about your journey and when you get unleashed into the world, with all the change that you are championing, and really great to have a chat today.

Belinda Ng 23:36
Thank you, Kathy.

Katherine Ann Byam 23:37
This podcast is brought to you today by the brand new women in sustainable business awards that kicks off in 2023. If you're a business owner who's starting a business with principles of sustainability in mind, and you want to preserve some lost skills, some handcrafting artisinal work, or you're a social media manager supporting purpose driven brands, or you're creating fashion or something that is relevant to the sustainability and green transformation. You are more than welcome to join us and to get involved in these awards. Check out our group on Facebook women in sustainable business, or follow the podcast where ideas launch on Instagram to find out more.

077 Abortion ESG

About this Episode

Abortion ESG is a term I've coined to describe the implications of abortion on the environment, the societies that form us, and the governance that's meant to protects us.

A friend introduced me to the term Cognitive Polyphasia where different knowledge and rationales live side by side in one person. And this is definitely something we are all experiencing when attempting to tackle complex issues in order to make deliberate choices. If we consider that all lives matter, the dissonance becomes even louder. Because we take so much life in the broad sense of bandwidth, in order that we may preserve our own.

This is precisely the decision many women make of the people I know personally around the world who have gone through the ordeal of terminating a pregnancy.

I don't recall meeting a single one who is proud of it, talks openly about it, or does not sometimes wonder what could have been.

Subscribe to Where Ideas Launch

Episode Transcript

Katherine Ann Byam 0:01
Abortion ESG is a term I've coined to describe the implications of abortion on the environment, the societies that form us, and the governance that protects us. Let's get into this episode.

Here's a clip now, a friend introduced me to the term cognitive polyphasia, where different knowledge and rationales live side by side in one person. And this is definitely something we are all experiencing when attempting to tackle complex issues in order to make deliberate choices. If we consider that all lives matter, the dissonance becomes even louder. Because we take so much life, in the broad sense of that word, in order that we may preserve our own, which is precisely the decision many women make. Of the people I know personally around the world who have gone through the ordeal of terminating a pregnancy, I don't recall meeting a single one who is proud of it, talks openly about it, or does not sometimes wonder what could have been.

This is season five, the great debates of our times, Season Five will be centred around the great debates. And we will be comparing and contrasting different viewpoints on various topics that are consuming the public discourse at present. The reason I've decided to take this approach is because we, or at least many of us, are losing the skill of debate. And I think this is an essential skill for us all to practice once more. I don't see how we get to the point of saving the world and saving our planet. If we don't know how to discuss our differences. I also think that the solution to most of our challenges is somewhere in the spectrum of views, but never a type of extreme. I will be working with guests to curate the content and discuss beforehand, I will understand their positions, their areas of genius, and navigate my questions around that so that the conversation is challenging and stimulating without being combative. I hope you enjoy season five of where ideas launch; a sustainable innovation podcast.

These are the great debates and today I want to debate with you; my listeners. So feel free to drop me a message on any of the socials to share your views on what I'm about to discuss. I call this entire episode abortion ESG. The reason I chose this terminology, is because there's so much more to this topic than really meets the eye.

In the news recently, the US Supreme Court overturned the decision of Roe versus Wade, which previously acknowledged a woman's right to have control over her own reproductive rights. This right has since been taken away at a federal level. There's so much to unpack about this decision. My personal opinion is that it's too complex for the law to legislate on, and that it is completely the mother's choice, until birth. But I also understand that the view, that a life is taken when a mother decides to terminate her pregnancy, is a difficult one to swallow. Let's get into this a bit.

Some of the reasons a woman may choose to terminate a pregnancy are as follows:

She's become a victim of incest or rape,

her health and life or at risk,

her mental health may be at risk.

She has no support system around her.

She doesn't believe she's emotionally or physically ready.

She cannot afford to have unpaid leave.

She cannot afford childcare.

She doesn't believe the planet has a future.

She doesn't think she's in a relationship where a child would be welcomed.

She has ended her relationship with the father and does not want to start a family as a single parent.

She's concerned about adoption and fostering for her child, as there are no guarantees about the type of home a child she bears, but gives up, will be in.

She never wanted to be a parent.

She's concerned about her career.

She's concerned about the social taboos of having a child outside of marriage, perhaps, she's concerned she won't be a good mother.

She doesn't want the responsibility that comes with the job.

The pregnancy was a failure of contraception, the child's health and well being would be compromised.

And any other reason a woman can contrive for not wanting to carry a pregnancy to the full nine months.

Just to add that all of these reasons are reasons that perhaps women take contraception in the first place. And abortion, perhaps, is a failure of a contraceptive method ultimately, or a failure of care.

Let's explore a few more angles to the story because there's a lot that comes up for me in experiencing this the way that I've experienced it in social media over the past week.

Abortion is not legal in my country of birth; Trinidad and Tobago, it still happens and people who can afford it are able to receive good medical care in some private facilities. But it's still illegal. I know of incredible woman who have contributed so much to Trinidad and Tobago society and economy, who have had abortions, had they been caught and imprisoned for their crime, arrested, the country would have lost so much of their talent, we will never know what their lost children would have become. Exactly the same way we do not know what so many people lost to wars, famines, slavery, attacks, diseases would have become had we taken more care with preserving their lives as well.

A friend introduced me to the term cognitive polyphasia, where different knowledge and rationales live side by side inside one person. And this is definitely something we all experience when attempting to tackle complex issues, in order to make deliberate choices instead of following the path of nature.

If we consider that all lives matter, the dissonance becomes even louder, because we take so much life, in the broad sense of the word, in order that we may preserve ours, which is precisely the decision many women are making when they take the decision to terminate. And when I talk about life, I mean all life, the animals, the plants, and the human beings, of the people I know personally around the world who have gone through the ordeal of terminating a pregnancy, I don't recall meeting a single one, who was proud of it, talked openly about it, or does not sometimes wonder what could have been.

To get to a point where you have to make such a decision is a level of anguish and torture, they would wish upon no one. And it stays with that individual for a lifetime. It seems therefore to be something where legislation serves more harm than it does any good, further exacerbating the anguish a mother instinctively feels.

To legislate, appears to me, to be an unnatural act. Let's go a bit further. So by the way, I read a post on Twitter yesterday, it said; in a situation where man holds a woman at gunpoint and rapes her. The gun, will leave that situation with more rights than either human in America.

I started reviewing some of the implications, America's federal law offers new mothers 12 weeks of unpaid leave to have a child, the 12 weeks isn't a guarantee, the individual has to have met certain employment criteria to be eligible. paediatric healthcare isn't free. And what happens to children under the age of 18, who become pregnant while at school? What are the implications on people's choices about which states they want to live in?

What will be the potential impact on crime, mental health and schooling in those states over the next 18 years, and then the neighbouring states as well? How many will be lost to medical procedures being done poorly, there's much to think about and navigate as America moves through these waters. But we also have to reflect on how this decision implicates the rest of us around the world. This is a human right conversation.

And if we're not having it, we're not thinking about the bigger picture of what implicates our children into the future. So these are important debates to have, even if we're going to struggle on the conclusion. Becoming a parent has major implications for sustainability. And this is where I'm going to get into a lot of trouble and I expect the maximum amount of pushback and debate from you. Parenting appears to change people. I can't speak from personal experience only anecdotal, and based on observation, but parents can become so consumed by the immediate and sustained well being of their children, they can lose sight of the system as a whole.

This point is most clear when it comes to education, in richer countries. Parents with more means move to locations with reputable schools, crowding out parents with less means. The biases in the education system creates a ripple effect on housing, healthcare, and other public services. As such, parents can become numb to fixing these issues, and keen to ensure advantages for their offspring.

Then there's a topic of wealth now versus wealth in the future. The accumulation of wealth, generational wealth, if you want to call it that, and the impact of compounding on wealth, have all contributed to the global inequality we see in the world today. Generational wealth sustains and exacerbates global poverty levels. Generational wealth is a factor of how we choose to parent and provide. The other sustainability concerns are these: high birth rates lead to rapid population growth and population growth leads to more sales.

This is assuming we have the resource capacity to maintain this level of growth. But we already know that we do not. If everyone on the planet ate and purchased in the same way that rich countries do, we are headed for a global ecosystem collapse. We are probably headed there anyway. It therefore seems to me that a bigger concern for us right now is to evaluate our understanding about life, and aim to preserve the delicate balance required with nature.

I don't see how forced parenthood addresses any of our really pressing concerns about how we're going to get out of the century alive. We're going to be having many more debates of this nature in the coming years, as scientific facts come face to face with religion, morality, and ethics. And we're accumulating more of these scientific facts all the time, I want to urge you to stay in the debate by writing to me on LinkedIn, or joining one of my communities to share your views and join the conversation. These are important things to discuss. So let's have that debate.

This podcast is brought to you today by the brand new women in sustainable business awards that kicks off in 2023. If you're a business owner who's starting a business with principles of sustainability in mind, and you want to preserve some lost skills, some handcrafting, artisanal work, or you're a social media manager supporting purpose driven brands, or you're creating fashion, or something that is relevant to the sustainability and green transformation, you are more than welcome to join us and to get involved in these awards. Check out our group on Facebook women in sustainable business, or follow the podcast where ideas launch on Instagram to find out more.

076 The Profit Maximising Goal of Companies

About this Episode

Should companies focus exclusively on maximising profit?
Nothing in life is that straightforward, and certainly not today when our understanding of how our world works has had quantum leaps.
In this episode I explore the legacy of Milton Friedman with some needed food for thought on profit vs purpose.

Subscribe to Where Ideas Launch

Episode Transcript

What does the raging debate around ESG actually mean to you as an economic actor in society?

I’ve been buried in research for my upcoming book - Do What Matters - The Purpose Driven Career Transition Guide, as well as completing a course from University of California, Berkeley - School of Law on ESG, and preparing micro learning on sustainability for the team at Mind Channel.

What’s been central around discussions of late is the role of purpose in organisations, and whether or not boards or shareholders have the right

Since pursuing learning on ESG matters, I've read much on the role of Milton Friedman on the theory of shareholder primacy and the profit maximisation purpose of companies. I've referred often derogatorily to his doctrine, but I’d never read it end to end until recently.

I quote now from his article

“In a free‐enterprise, private‐property system, a corporate executive is an employee of the owners of the business. He has direct responsibility to his employers. That responsibility is to conduct the business in accordance with their desires, which generally will be to make as much money as possible while conforming to the basic rules of the society, both those embodied in law and those embodied in ethical custom. Of course, in some cases his employers may have a different objective. In either case, the key point is that, in his capacity as a corporate executive, the manager is the agent of the individuals who own the corporation and his primary responsibility is to them.”

Now in that quote he talks about the basic rules of society as embodied by both law and custom, but this idea of custom doesn’t work the minute an organisation crosses borders, and even the law isn't uniform, and this again leaves the door open to fuel and incentivize irresponsible corporate action.

Milton Friedman also scoffed at the idea of corporate responsibility - as corporations don't have responsibilities except to the law that created them. but individuals do. Either way, the flaw in much of this article in my opinion is in a lack of integrated systems thinking.

I've listened to countless debates among professors that argue that even when shareholders act in the interest of profit maximisation, they are more likely to develop solutions that address long term social and climate concerns because it is fundamentally within their interest to do so, once ensconced in an appropriate tax structure that considers negative externalities.

Others argue for director primacy, challenging boards to embrace a north start or purpose in balancing the interests of all stakeholders in determining their actions.

You will see from Friedman’s article that he believes this role assigns boards powers they do not have. Whilst Friedman's arguments are interesting and worthy of some design consideration, The arguments remain as academic and removed from real life as are the doctrines of economic theory itself in my opinion.

When economists, lawyers, historians and politicians debate these issues, they are ignoring fundamentally important disciplines from their discourse. We live in a series of interconnected systems. From the individual, the household, the community, the state/county, the country, the global economic system, and all of these are bounded by biological, geological and atmospheric systems that support existence itself.

If we want to debate what's right, appropriate, legal, fair, just, we can't do it in the same bubbles we have in the past, we need the voices of engineers, biologists, botanists, geologists, chemists, artists, physicists, statisticians, theologians, activists and a host of other siloed characters before we even understand how the system works in order to improve it.

We live in the Anthropocene; a widely disputed fact of geology (don't worry I'm not oblivious to the contradiction in this statement), which means that humans now more than any other factor are impacting on climate and other major geological systems on the earth, and increasingly in space. That this is happening isn't inherently a problem; risk always walks in the hands of opportunity.

With the capabilities we have today on data, technology, systems science, modelling, design, we can create a new trajectory for humans within the context of society and natural systems to correct, and potentially reverse the damage we've done by the weaknesses of our past understanding. It will take a strong and compelling desire for a legacy of having a continuously livable earth, at the expense of individual egos.

When Andrew Winston and Paul Polman speak of net positive, this I believe is what they challenge us to envision. When Kate Raworth discusses doughnut economics, I believe she also addresses these gaps. Have a read and share your thoughts below.

“The purpose of business is to profitably solve problems of people and the planet, and not to profit from causing problems.” The British Academy

Perhaps this is the simple idea that we can all get behind!

#esg #sustainability #netpositive #netzero #esginvesting #esgreporting

https://www.nytimes.com/1970/09/13/archives/a-friedman-doctrine-the-social-responsibility-of-business-is-to.html?smid=url-share