077 Abortion ESG

077 Abortion ESG

About this Episode

Abortion ESG is a term I've coined to describe the implications of abortion on the environment, the societies that form us, and the governance that's meant to protects us.

A friend introduced me to the term Cognitive Polyphasia where different knowledge and rationales live side by side in one person. And this is definitely something we are all experiencing when attempting to tackle complex issues in order to make deliberate choices. If we consider that all lives matter, the dissonance becomes even louder. Because we take so much life in the broad sense of bandwidth, in order that we may preserve our own.

This is precisely the decision many women make of the people I know personally around the world who have gone through the ordeal of terminating a pregnancy.

I don't recall meeting a single one who is proud of it, talks openly about it, or does not sometimes wonder what could have been.

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Episode Transcript

Katherine Ann Byam 0:01
Abortion ESG is a term I've coined to describe the implications of abortion on the environment, the societies that form us, and the governance that protects us. Let's get into this episode.

Here's a clip now, a friend introduced me to the term cognitive polyphasia, where different knowledge and rationales live side by side in one person. And this is definitely something we are all experiencing when attempting to tackle complex issues in order to make deliberate choices. If we consider that all lives matter, the dissonance becomes even louder. Because we take so much life, in the broad sense of that word, in order that we may preserve our own, which is precisely the decision many women make. Of the people I know personally around the world who have gone through the ordeal of terminating a pregnancy, I don't recall meeting a single one who is proud of it, talks openly about it, or does not sometimes wonder what could have been.

This is season five, the great debates of our times, Season Five will be centred around the great debates. And we will be comparing and contrasting different viewpoints on various topics that are consuming the public discourse at present. The reason I've decided to take this approach is because we, or at least many of us, are losing the skill of debate. And I think this is an essential skill for us all to practice once more. I don't see how we get to the point of saving the world and saving our planet. If we don't know how to discuss our differences. I also think that the solution to most of our challenges is somewhere in the spectrum of views, but never a type of extreme. I will be working with guests to curate the content and discuss beforehand, I will understand their positions, their areas of genius, and navigate my questions around that so that the conversation is challenging and stimulating without being combative. I hope you enjoy season five of where ideas launch; a sustainable innovation podcast.

These are the great debates and today I want to debate with you; my listeners. So feel free to drop me a message on any of the socials to share your views on what I'm about to discuss. I call this entire episode abortion ESG. The reason I chose this terminology, is because there's so much more to this topic than really meets the eye.

In the news recently, the US Supreme Court overturned the decision of Roe versus Wade, which previously acknowledged a woman's right to have control over her own reproductive rights. This right has since been taken away at a federal level. There's so much to unpack about this decision. My personal opinion is that it's too complex for the law to legislate on, and that it is completely the mother's choice, until birth. But I also understand that the view, that a life is taken when a mother decides to terminate her pregnancy, is a difficult one to swallow. Let's get into this a bit.

Some of the reasons a woman may choose to terminate a pregnancy are as follows:

She's become a victim of incest or rape,

her health and life or at risk,

her mental health may be at risk.

She has no support system around her.

She doesn't believe she's emotionally or physically ready.

 She cannot afford to have unpaid leave.

 She cannot afford childcare.

 She doesn't believe the planet has a future.

 She doesn't think she's in a relationship where a child would be welcomed.

She has ended her relationship with the father and does not want to start a family as a single parent.

She's concerned about adoption and fostering for her child, as there are no guarantees about the type of home a child she bears, but gives up, will be in.

She never wanted to be a parent.

She's concerned about her career.

She's concerned about the social taboos of having a child outside of marriage, perhaps, she's concerned she won't be a good mother.

 She doesn't want the responsibility that comes with the job.

The pregnancy was a failure of contraception, the child's health and well being would be compromised.

And any other reason a woman can contrive for not wanting to carry a pregnancy to the full nine months.

Just to add that all of these reasons are reasons that perhaps women take contraception in the first place. And abortion, perhaps, is a failure of a contraceptive method ultimately, or a failure of care.

Let's explore a few more angles to the story because there's a lot that comes up for me in experiencing this the way that I've experienced it in social media over the past week.

Abortion is not legal in my country of birth; Trinidad and Tobago, it still happens and people who can afford it are able to receive good medical care in some private facilities. But it's still illegal. I know of incredible woman who have contributed so much to Trinidad and Tobago society and economy, who have had abortions, had they been caught and imprisoned for their crime, arrested, the country would have lost so much of their talent, we will never know what their lost children would have become. Exactly the same way we do not know what so many people lost to wars, famines, slavery, attacks, diseases would have become had we taken more care with preserving their lives as well.

A friend introduced me to the term cognitive polyphasia, where different knowledge and rationales live side by side inside one person. And this is definitely something we all experience when attempting to tackle complex issues, in order to make deliberate choices instead of following the path of nature.

If we consider that all lives matter, the dissonance becomes even louder, because we take so much life, in the broad sense of the word, in order that we may preserve ours, which is precisely the decision many women are making when they take the decision to terminate. And when I talk about life, I mean all life, the animals, the plants, and the human beings, of the people I know personally around the world who have gone through the ordeal of terminating a pregnancy, I don't recall meeting a single one, who was proud of it, talked openly about it, or does not sometimes wonder what could have been.

To get to a point where you have to make such a decision is a level of anguish and torture, they would wish upon no one. And it stays with that individual for a lifetime. It seems therefore to be something where legislation serves more harm than it does any good, further exacerbating the anguish a mother instinctively feels.

To legislate, appears to me, to be an unnatural act. Let's go a bit further. So by the way, I read a post on Twitter yesterday, it said; in a situation where man holds a woman at gunpoint and rapes her. The gun, will leave that situation with more rights than either human in America.

I started reviewing some of the implications, America's federal law offers new mothers 12 weeks of unpaid leave to have a child, the 12 weeks isn't a guarantee, the individual has to have met certain employment criteria to be eligible. paediatric healthcare isn't free. And what happens to children under the age of 18, who become pregnant while at school? What are the implications on people's choices about which states they want to live in?

What will be the potential impact on crime, mental health and schooling in those states over the next 18 years, and then the neighbouring states as well? How many will be lost to medical procedures being done poorly, there's much to think about and navigate as America moves through these waters. But we also have to reflect on how this decision implicates the rest of us around the world. This is a human right conversation.

And if we're not having it, we're not thinking about the bigger picture of what implicates our children into the future. So these are important debates to have, even if we're going to struggle on the conclusion. Becoming a parent has major implications for sustainability. And this is where I'm going to get into a lot of trouble and I expect the maximum amount of pushback and debate from you. Parenting appears to change people. I can't speak from personal experience only anecdotal, and based on observation, but parents can become so consumed by the immediate and sustained well being of their children, they can lose sight of the system as a whole.

This point is most clear when it comes to education, in richer countries. Parents with more means move to locations with reputable schools, crowding out parents with less means. The biases in the education system creates a ripple effect on housing, healthcare, and other public services. As such, parents can become numb to fixing these issues, and keen to ensure advantages for their offspring.

Then there's a topic of wealth now versus wealth in the future. The accumulation of wealth, generational wealth, if you want to call it that, and the impact of compounding on wealth, have all contributed to the global inequality we see in the world today. Generational wealth sustains and exacerbates global poverty levels. Generational wealth is a factor of how we choose to parent and provide. The other sustainability concerns are these: high birth rates lead to rapid population growth and population growth leads to more sales.

This is assuming we have the resource capacity to maintain this level of growth. But we already know that we do not. If everyone on the planet ate and purchased in the same way that rich countries do, we are headed for a global ecosystem collapse. We are probably headed there anyway. It therefore seems to me that a bigger concern for us right now is to evaluate our understanding about life, and aim to preserve the delicate balance required with nature.

 I don't see how forced parenthood addresses any of our really pressing concerns about how we're going to get out of the century alive. We're going to be having many more debates of this nature in the coming years, as scientific facts come face to face with religion, morality, and ethics. And we're accumulating more of these scientific facts all the time, I want to urge you to stay in the debate by writing to me on LinkedIn, or joining one of my communities to share your views and join the conversation. These are important things to discuss. So let's have that debate.

This podcast is brought to you today by the brand new women in sustainable business awards that kicks off in 2023. If you're a business owner who's starting a business with principles of sustainability in mind, and you want to preserve some lost skills, some handcrafting, artisanal work, or you're a social media manager supporting purpose driven brands, or you're creating fashion, or something that is relevant to the sustainability and green transformation, you are more than welcome to join us and to get involved in these awards. Check out our group on Facebook women in sustainable business, or follow the podcast where ideas launch on Instagram to find out more.

076 The Profit Maximising Goal of Companies

076 The Profit Maximising Goal of Companies

About this Episode

Should companies focus exclusively on maximising profit?
Nothing in life is that straightforward, and certainly not today when our understanding of how our world works has had quantum leaps.
In this episode I explore the legacy of Milton Friedman with some needed food for thought on profit vs purpose.

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Episode Transcript

What does the raging debate around ESG actually mean to you as an economic actor in society?

I’ve been buried in research for my upcoming book - Do What Matters - The Purpose Driven Career Transition Guide, as well as completing a course from University of California, Berkeley - School of Law on ESG, and preparing micro learning on sustainability for the team at Mind Channel.

What’s been central around discussions of late is the role of purpose in organisations, and whether or not boards or shareholders have the right 

Since pursuing learning on ESG matters, I've read much on the role of Milton Friedman on the theory of shareholder primacy and the profit maximisation purpose of companies. I've referred often derogatorily to his doctrine, but I’d never read it end to end until recently.

I quote now from his article

“In a free‐enterprise, private‐property system, a corporate executive is an employee of the owners of the business. He has direct responsibility to his employers. That responsibility is to conduct the business in accordance with their desires, which generally will be to make as much money as possible while conforming to the basic rules of the society, both those embodied in law and those embodied in ethical custom. Of course, in some cases his employers may have a different objective. In either case, the key point is that, in his capacity as a corporate executive, the manager is the agent of the individuals who own the corporation and his primary responsibility is to them.”

Now in that quote he talks about the basic rules of society as embodied by both law and custom, but this idea of custom doesn’t work the minute an organisation crosses borders, and even the law isn't uniform, and this again leaves the door open to fuel and incentivize irresponsible corporate action.

Milton Friedman also scoffed at the idea of corporate responsibility - as corporations don't have responsibilities except to the law that created them. but individuals do. Either way, the flaw in much of this article in my opinion is in a lack of integrated systems thinking.

I've listened to countless debates among professors that argue that even when shareholders act in the interest of profit maximisation, they are more likely to develop solutions that address long term social and climate concerns because it is fundamentally within their interest to do so, once ensconced in an appropriate tax structure that considers negative externalities. 

Others argue for director primacy, challenging boards to embrace a north start or purpose in balancing the interests of all stakeholders in determining their actions. 

You will see from Friedman’s article that he believes this role assigns boards powers they do not have. Whilst Friedman's arguments are interesting and worthy of some design consideration, The arguments remain as academic and removed from real life as are the doctrines of economic theory itself in my opinion.

When economists, lawyers, historians and politicians debate these issues, they are ignoring fundamentally important disciplines from their discourse. We live in a series of interconnected systems. From the individual, the household, the community, the state/county, the country, the global economic system, and all of these are bounded by biological, geological and atmospheric systems that support existence itself. 

If we want to debate what's right, appropriate, legal, fair, just, we can't do it in the same bubbles we have in the past, we need the voices of engineers, biologists, botanists, geologists, chemists, artists, physicists, statisticians, theologians, activists and a host of other siloed characters before we even understand how the system works in order to improve it.

We live in the Anthropocene; a widely disputed fact of geology (don't worry I'm not oblivious to the contradiction in this statement), which means that humans now more than any other factor are impacting on climate and other major geological systems on the earth, and increasingly in space. That this is happening isn't inherently a problem; risk always walks in the hands of opportunity.

With the capabilities we have today on data, technology, systems science, modelling, design, we can create a new trajectory for humans within the context of society and natural systems to correct, and potentially reverse the damage we've done by the weaknesses of our past understanding. It will take a strong and compelling desire for a legacy of having a continuously livable earth, at the expense of individual egos. 

When Andrew Winston and Paul Polman speak of net positive, this I believe is what they challenge us to envision. When Kate Raworth discusses doughnut economics, I believe she also addresses these gaps. Have a read and share your thoughts below.

“The purpose of business is to profitably solve problems of people and the planet, and not to profit from causing problems.” The British Academy

Perhaps this is the simple idea that we can all get behind!

#esg #sustainability #netpositive #netzero #esginvesting #esgreporting

075 Demystifying Nutrition and Feeding

075 Demystifying Nutrition and Feeding


About this Episode

Sarah Almond Bushell is an award-winning Registered Dietitian, ex NHS Consultant child nutritionist of 22 years and founder of ‘The Children’s Nutritionist’ who is working to reduce the stress around mealtimes for parents and is passionate about helping to cut the ties of generational eating habits, fuelled by misinformation and desperation tactics.

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Episode Transcript

Katherine Ann Byam 0:00
Changing what we eat is one of the best ways to have a significant impact on climate change. Yet a lot of us are afraid to make those important shifts, I had a chat with a dietitian and a feeding specialist to talk to her about what we can do to make change happen. Here's a clip of that recording now.

Sarah Almond Bushell 0:18
So I think one of the big myths that a lot of parents have, particularly parents of young children is they worry about how much protein their children having. So one of the most sort of frequently asked questions I get is, you know, my child won't eat any meat or fish I'm worried they're not getting enough protein. But actually, in truth, the protein requirements are really quite small. So we eat far more protein than we ever need. So it's absolutely no problem at all if people want to reduce the amount of meat that they do eat. That's, you know, that's absolutely fine. It's not going to have any nutritional problems at all.

Katherine Ann Byam 0:55
This is season five, the great debates of our times, Season Five will be centred around the great debates. And we will be comparing and contrasting different viewpoints on various topics that are consuming the public discourse at present. The reason I've decided to take this approach is because we, or at least many of us, are losing the skill of debate. And I think this is an essential skill for us all to practice once more. I don't see how we get to the point of saving the world and saving our planet. If we don't know how to discuss our differences. I also think that the solution to most of our challenges are somewhere in the spectrum of views, but never a type of extreme. I will be working with guests to curate the content and discuss beforehand, I will understand their positions, their areas of genius, and navigate my questions around that so that the conversation is challenging and stimulating without being combative. I hope you enjoy season five of where ideas launch the Sustainable Innovation podcast.

Sarah Almond Bushell is an award winning registered dietician, ex NHS consultant, child nutritionist of 22 years and founder of the children's nutritionist, who's working to reduce the stress around mealtimes for parents and is passionate about helping to cut the ties of generational eating habits fueled by misinformation and desperation tactics. Sarah, welcome to where ideas launch.

Sarah Almond Bushell 2:23
Thank you so much for having me.

Katherine Ann Byam 2:25
Sarah, I'm excited to have you because I think food is such an important subject. And I want to be able to unpack all the things we never understood about food, nutrition, feeding. And I also want to explore another angle, which is how we can change and adapt our own nutrition even as adults. Given that we need to look at those relationships later on for what is to come. So let's get started. You are a nutritionist who couldn't get your kids to eat. Tell us about your early experiences as a mother and how this impacted your journey.

Sarah Almond Bushell 2:56
Yeah, absolutely. So I qualified as a dietician and had been working 10 years in paediatric in a hospital setting. So in paediatric clinical nutrition when my first baby came along, and at the time, this sort of buzzword was all about responsive feeding. And so letting the baby kind of take charge and be in control of what they wanted to have and how much they wanted to eat. And so I truly embraced that because I felt that was what I was the right thing to do. And what I found was he was a particularly strong willed little boy who was very, very demanding, and essentially, he would demand milk, he would demand snacks as he became a toddler, and he ended up with iron deficiency anaemia, which made me feel like a bit of a failure considering I was a paediatric dietitian working in a children's hospital and my own child had a nutritional deficiency. And then with my second child, she was actually much harder. So she came along two and a half years later, and from day one, she vomited. She was falling off the growth charts. She wasn't growing in the way that she was intended to. She was covered from top to tail in eczema, but she was just a really sicky baby. And the GPS would kind of fob me off has been a bit of a paranoid mother. Health Visitors didn't know what to do. And it transpired that she actually had quite a severe anaphylactic food allergy, which she was getting through my breast milk, but by the point we identified that she was like eight and a half, nine months old, and by that time, she'd just associated anything that went in her mouth with feeling poorly. So she just didn't eat. She refused breastfeeds. I tried her with formula she'd refuse that, she'd refuse food. Sometimes I could get a little bit of food into her and then she would puke the whole lot up. And then that would be you know, that food written off completely. So she just associated food with pain and ended up with a feeding aversion.

Katherine Ann Byam 4:56
What an incredible trauma.

Sarah Almond Bushell 4:58
Yeah and as a dietitian When I felt absolutely rubbish, you know, this was my job. This is what I did. I was supposed to be the person who you would go to when children had feeding problems. And I'd failed with both of my own children.

Katherine Ann Byam 5:14
You speak about the generational sort of challenge with this, was there something that came also from your own past that might have impacted on your children to your knowledge.

Sarah Almond Bushell 5:18
Not at all that came later, actually, what happened next was a lot of my colleagues and the Children's Hospital where I worked essentially couldn't help because they all said, well, we don't know what to do, I can't help you don't know what to do here. And so I ended up basically going to Google and spent hours and days and months typing stuff into Google to try and find out what I could do to help her in particular, and what I found was a lot of the stuff that's on there was really unhelpful, you know, stuff about changing the food, trying new recipes, cutting sandwiches into the shapes of teddy bears, or stamping hearts in cucumber, and all of this kind of stuff. But none of that actually works. And so I ended up stumbling across quite randomly, a team of feeding therapists based in Colorado in the USA, and essentially, I stalked them and learned so much from them and went on to become a an advanced level feeding therapist with them. And that's what led me to learning that with my daughter, she needed quite specific feeding therapy because of all of the early experiences that she'd had. But with my son, what I recognised there is that my role in the feeding relationship had a start and an end. And his role in the feeding relationship also had a complimentary start and an end. And when we crossed streams, so to speak, that's when the problems arose. After, you know, sorting out my own children, I started to apply this to my patients that were coming through the clinics. And what I discovered there was there was so many of these eating habits that were just passed down from one generation to the next to the next through, you know, with families, and they hadn't really ever considered the way they do things. So for example, one of the big ones is withholding pudding until you've had your dinner, you know, you can't have pudding until you've eaten your dinner, or you need to clear everything on your plate before you're allowed to have pudding. And it was these sorts of things that I started to realise that actually if we flip that around and allow the child to have what the pudding just put it on the table so they can see what it is. And if they choose to eat that first. So be it. As long as it says small enough portion size, because there's plenty other food there to fill up on. It actually changed the dynamic of feeding and family relationships. I think that was that was the main thing sort of the family mealtimes became collaborative, they became calm, people would report back that things had changed quite drastically from just minor tweaks in how they fed their children.

Katherine Ann Byam 7:55
That's quite incredible and quite unexpected. I think a lot of people listening to this will be thinking what feed your kids the dessert first. And let's talk a bit about that. So what are some of the myths that we need to bust about the way we do mainstream nutritional education at the moment, starting with our kids?

Sarah Almond Bushell 8:15
Yeah, so it's mainly around the feeding rather than nutrition, I would say so in food and feeding are two completely separate things. And what I've ended up doing is kind of specialising in the feeding part. So a lot of it is cultural, you know, it's the stuff that our grandparents taught our parents and our parents taught us and then we've passed on to our children and none of it is actually backed in science at all. But now we do have some you know, amazing psychology research, which has kind of unpacked these cultural ways of feeding children and found out that there's better ways to do things. So going back to that example about allowing your child to have pudding, you know, early on in the meal at the start of the meal perhaps what that does, is it it takes the sweet food, the pudding food from being this highly desirable thing that's you know, upon a pedestal that children almost have to earn by completing that arduous task of eating their meal before they get their prize. So when we do it the old way like that, what happens is foods that are sweet essentially, because that's what pudding tends to be, is considered much higher value becomes much more desirable. Children will crave it, we use those sorts of foods in celebrations don't we, so like birthdays Christmases, you know, even going to the cinema, you know, you might get an ice cream or popcorn or something like that. We use sweet foods as a way of celebrating happy times. And so they've already got that power of being something highly desirable. And something that's really nice.

Katherine Ann Byam 9:51
I would also say it's used as a bit of behavioural control as well, right. I'll give you a sweet if you just stop screaming.

Sarah Almond Bushell 9:57
And it works. It works. So that was, I actually forgot about this one, but that was actually how we got to potty train my son. Every time he managed to do a week on the potty he got a sweet. And so he picked up potty training and within hours you know, it does work as a reward. And what's interesting about that is sweet foods, babies are born with really mature sweet tastebuds and it's an evolutionary thing to, it's a survival mechanism actually, is to help them seek out the breast at birth for survival, but that, that really mature sweet taste stays with them all through their childhood all through the teenage years. And it only, the sort of bitter and the savoury stuff that has to be learned over those years, only catches up in that early adulthood time. So those sweet foods have already got you know, far more power over children than anything else that that we can offer them.

Katherine Ann Byam 9:59
That's really, really, really interesting. Thank you for sharing that what I wanted to kind of switch to or move to is how has your training actually influenced your family.

Sarah Almond Bushell 10:57
It's had a huge impact actually. So first of all, my daughter who had this, you know, feeding aversion and fear of food, essentially, she's 13 next week, and she wants to be a chef when she grows up. She absolutely loves food. It's really helped her blossom into this fearless foodie for a want of a better word. So her favourite subject at school is food tech. She wants you know, she wants to be cooking all the time, when the lockdowns hit, we were all at home. And so we would all sit around the table and eat together and share, you know, one meal between everyone. And that's had a real, profound effect as well. So one of the things I do recommend to all families is to try and eat together whenever you can. And part of that is because if you've got very young children, you're their role model, and they need to see you doing it first, before they ever decide to you know, pick up a piece of broccoli or a green bean and see you eating it and know it's safe before they'll ever do it themselves. But it's also where you learn a lot of the social skills as well. And if you're wanting to introduce new food, it's a really safe environment to do that, provided there's not pressure to eat the new food, because a lot of the way that children learn is through their sensory systems. So just by placing the food on the table, they're seeing it, they're smelling it from afar, they're looking at, you know, the colours, there's all this sort of sensory characteristics they're picking up on. And so that can really help. So in terms of my family, I would say that both children are much more adventurous with foods they'll try. And we often see that now and they bring their friends home, we serve what I call sort of family style. So it's where you put all the different components of the meal in the centre of the table, and everyone has an empty plate and helps themselves to how much. And their friends are often gobsmacked at that, because their parents have pre plated for them. Again, it's a cultural thing, not based on science, but their parents have decided how much of each part of the meal they should be eating. And so when they're given this autonomy of having an empty plate, and they can decide how many spoons of carrots they want, and how many potatoes they want, it's really, really interesting to watch, they almost don't know what to do.

Katherine Ann Byam 13:06
Now, thats really great I like this, this idea and this concept. And it's bringing me to you know how this links to my sustainability conversation. And one of the things that we're being told now, and I think it's really important for us to understand and figure out how we adapt, is that the amount of meat that we eat, is starting to really have massive impact on our climate, because it takes so much land space to grow the food crop that feeds the animals, as well as it's a little bit inhumane, right? If you really think about it, then we can get some, at least most of the nutrition that we need, we can get it from plant substitutes. So there is a big change that we need to do. And I'm wondering how we face that change? Because at the moment, it's quite difficult. I've cut my own meat consumption to about 50% of what it was, except during holiday weeks. But you know, this isn't easy for people to do. So what are your thoughts on how we could approach that?

Sarah Almond Bushell 14:05
Yeah, absolutely. So I think one of the big myths that a lot of parents have, particularly parents of young children is they worry about how much protein their children are having. So one of the most sort of frequently asked questions I get is, you know, my child won't eat any meat or fish and I'm worried they're not getting enough protein. But actually, in truth, the protein requirements are really quite small. So we eat far more with protein than we ever need. So it's absolutely no problem at all. If people want to reduce the amount of meat that they do eat. That's, you know, that's absolutely fine. It's not going to have any nutritional problem at all. What I would say is one of the things that we can think about doing is reducing our dairy consumption. So using some of the plant based milks, I would say that if you've got a child under two, that's not a great idea because they still need a lot of nutrition from their milk and cow's milk contains that whereas plant milk doesn't. Even when it's been fortified, it doesn't really match up. It's more like a flavoured water. I often say to people, but you know, from two and above, you can absolutely use a plant based milk. Instead, just make sure it's got calcium, make sure it's been fortified with iodine as well, that's one of the limiting nutrients. So that's the other thing they can do. And then the other thing as well is looking for products that have been produced locally. So not buying foods that have been flown halfway across the world just so that we can eat them, you know, all year round. So seasonal, and local are two big things. So there's lots of parts, I think, to more of a sustainable way of eating that we can all do fairly easily.

Katherine Ann Byam 15:45
Yeah, absolutely. What further tips and advice can you give to young families on their nutrition journeys that we haven't covered already?

Sarah Almond Bushell 15:53
Yeah, absolutely. So if you've got a child who is, eats well, so not a fussy eater, where they might need extra help, the main things that families can do is look at something that we call the division of responsibility and feeding. So I alluded to this earlier, where the parents have their role, and the child has their role, and it's a shared relationship. So what that means is that the parents role is to choose what's on the menu to decide what the family are going to eat. And that's really important because children have very poor nutritional knowledge. So when parents say, what do you want for tea, they're always going to pick the thing that they fancy rather than, you know, with their nutritionist hat on. So parents are in charge of the what they're going to eat. Parents are also in charge of where so whether that's going to be at the kitchen table or picnic in the park. And then parents are also in charge of when. So by that I mean sort of the routine or the shedule. And actually, it's really quite important to have a set routine for children when they're eating, which usually looks like meal, snack meal snack meal bed, because that allows a relationship of trust to build because they know it's predictable, they know when the next meal is coming from, and then that's the parents job done. So they don't need to do anything else, the child's role is to be in charge of their own bodies. So be very autonomous about what goes into their bodies. So they decide if they're going to eat, sometimes they don't. And if they do eat, they decide how much they're going to eat, in what order and crucially when to stop. So when I see battles at meal times, for want of a better word, or drama at meal times, it's often because parents have looked at what the child had and thought that's not enough, please eat a bit more, you know, just just take another teaspoon of peas, or you know what, I'm not going to give you a pudding until you've eaten all your chicken. And actually, that's not our role as a parent, you know, we need to let our children be in charge of what and how much.

Katherine Ann Byam 17:51
This is brilliant. Thank you so much for these really great nuggets of advice. Let my listeners know how they can get in touch with you or work with you if they have children who need some support with this, or parents actually who need some support with this.

Sarah Almond Bushell 18:03
Yeah, it's a pleasure. So my website is probably the best place to find me. It's children's nutrition.co.uk. And I've also, I'm on Instagram at the Children's nutritionist. And I have a Facebook group which is called the children's nutritionists community.

Katherine Ann Byam 18:20
Perfect. Thank you so much for joining us today.

Sarah Almond Bushell 18:22
It's a pleasure. Thanks for having me.

Katherine Ann Byam 18:27
This podcast is brought to you today by the brand new Women In Sustainable Business Awards. That kicks off in 2023. If you're a business owner who's starting your business with principles of sustainability in mind, and you want to preserve some lost skills, some handcrafting or artisanal work, or you're a social media manager supporting purpose driven brands, or you're creating fashion or something that is relevant to the sustainability and green transformation. You are more than welcome to join us and to get involved in these awards. Check out our group on Facebook women in sustainable business or follow the podcast where ideas launch on Instagram to find out more.

074 The Adventures of Scout

074 The Adventures of Scout

About this Episode

The three engineers are on a mission  to supply a book to every Primary school in the UK and encourage readers and children to join Scout’s team (the book protagonist) to help better the planet.

Let me introduce you to the 3 Engineers. They are:

Nick – Chartered Senior Systems Engineer -  10 years at Babcock International 

Matt - Chartered Assistant Chief Engineer – 14 years at Babcock International – Lead Technical lead for several large programmes

 Jon – Chartered Project Engineer – RWG Renewables

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Connect with The 3 Engineers

Episode Transcript

Katherine Ann Byam 0:00
Have you heard about the adventures of scout? The three engineers have applied the science and the tools and technology of engineering to their process of creating a children's book, I interviewed the three engineers and I asked them what they would change about the education system. Here's what they said.

Matt 0:17
I think the first thing we have to do is figure out what's important, we'd have to identify what's really important, is it that children need to be able to spout off facts in a about a specific subject in a exam, or is it that we need to teach our children how to live their lives as best they can.

Katherine Ann Byam 0:43
The Adventures of scout is one of the most interesting and engaging children's books I've had a look at recently. And it really encourages positive action positive momentum for the planet. Tune into this really insightful episode, and give the three engineers and the Adventures of Scout a follow, make sure to go download or buy your copy of The Adventures of Scout today. This is season five, the great debates of our times, Season Five will be centred around the great debates. And we will be comparing and contrasting different viewpoints on various topics that are consuming the public discourse at present. The reason I decided to take this approach is because we or at least many of us, are losing the skill of debate. And I think this is an essential skill for us all to practice once more. I don't see how we get to the point of saving the world and saving our planet. If we don't know how to discuss our differences. I also think that the solution to most of our challenges is somewhere in the spectrum of views, but never a type of extreme. I will be working with guests to curate the content and discuss beforehand, I will understand their positions their areas of genius, and navigate my questions around that so that the conversation is challenging and stimulating. Without being combative. I hope you enjoy season five of where ideas launch the Sustainable Innovation podcast. The three engineers are on a mission to supply a book to every primary school in the UK and encourage readers and children to join scouts team, the book protagonist to help better the planet. Let me introduce you to the three engineers they are. Nick is a chartered senior systems engineer at Babcock International. And Matt is a chartered Assistant Chief Engineer, also at Babcock International. John is a chartered project engineer at RW G renewables. John is not currently available with us today. But the rest of the team is here. So Welcome guys to where ideas launch. Hello, nice to meet you, Katherine, great to have you both. So let's get started. So can I just say this is the first time I'm interviewing a group of men doing a sustainable project. So typically, I get groups of women or I get women who are really trying to make change happen. But I don't often get recommended men who are making changes in this space, and doing it as a side gig. So what are your thoughts on that?

Nick 3:09
I think from our perspective, we've done it just independently, we didn't really consider too much beforehand what we were going to do we got together as a team to do something different. And what happened was we quickly realised that what was important to us and our values, were the environment, health and well being and technology. And then we looked at the amount of time that we had and resources to be able to dedicate that to this idea. And that's how the book was born.

Katherine Ann Byam 3:39
So tell me a little bit about the project and what drove you out of your niche. So you're both working in sort of big engineering type operations? What made it happen if I direct my question to Matt, perhaps,

Matt 3:54
Our work, we were all working together in the same place at the time. And on Friday afternoons, we used to have Friday afternoon off, so we didn't have to work past 1230. Normally, we'd just all meet up and hang out and go to the pub or something like that. And one day, we sort of said, Oh, we should probably do something more important with our time other than just sink a few beers. So I set up five meetings, basically I said, right, instead of, we're still gonna go to the pub, we'll have a purpose to it other than just socialising and try and figure out whether we're going to do something different and meaningful with that spare time that we've got. And yeah, that's just out of those five meetings. That's how Nick, John and I sort of formed together as the three engineers.

Katherine Ann Byam 4:39
And do you guys have kids?

Nick 4:41
Yep, I've got a 13 year old.

Matt 4:44
Yeah, I've got a six year old and a three year old.

Katherine Ann Byam 4:49
And what sort of stimulated you from doing this project from that perspective. What were you seeing in terms of the kind of material or curriculum that your kids are experiencing that made, you want to do something a little bit different. Maybe I go to Nick this time,

Nick 5:06
We didn't really set out, like we said, to come up with books, we came up with lots of different ideas. And as engineers, we've got lots of processes and tools. So we've decided that whatever we do, will stick to those processes and tools, and we'll basically map out an idea. So we came up with lots of ideas, scored them in a matrix. And I think each of us had individual sort of ambitions. So I wanted to improve career advice to school because mine wasn't as good as I had hoped, Matt really liked tech stuff. So he really liked the idea of having forums or websites and blogs and things like that. And John came from a different angle where he wanted to design sustainable products. And combining and merging all of those ideas together, I think Matt came up with the idea of having how can we have the biggest impact. And we all decided that with the time that we had, if we could pull it off, if we could write some kids books, about some of the topics that were personal to us. So for example, I particularly don't like litter, I pick up litter, and Matt is from sort of from the countryside down south. So he really remembers his childhood as like with bees so we kind of tried to link them all to our sort of personal touches. So yeah, so

Matt 6:13
At the time, when we formed back in 2018, my three year old daughter, she wasn't even born, my son, we were in the midst of like, he was just consuming literature, like reading stories to him. It was like dozens of stories every day. And I think that's where one of the ideas that well, we had a couple of ideas in our Scoring Matrix were to write children's stories. One that it's about solving problems, one that was for promoting women in engineering. They were the two ideas. Yeah, that sort of they say it sort of came about because my, I could see how my son was just consuming information, and really thinking about what was being told in these stories. And like Nick said, we wanted our project to make the biggest impact. And by, like, sort of feeding in those messages at such an early age, you can have an impact, not just at that age range, but like a three year old is more than happy to tell an adult to pick up litter because it's bad. So teaching their parents, their teachers, their siblings about this message. We just felt well, why wouldn't we focus on that area. And so that's where it did influence from my kids anyway,

Katherine Ann Byam 7:35
I've just recorded an episode with Susan Krumdieck. She's a transition engineering specialist, she's based out of Heriot-Watt in Scotland, in Orkney. And one of the things that she talks about in her work and in the book that she's written, actually, is that engineers are really the engine room of the of the economy, even though probably engineers don't even see it that way. And she applies this to sort of past major shifts that we've had to make. So things like I don't know, solving water problems, or different types of solutions that we've had over the time of our evolution, and how engineers are actually the ones who make stuff happen, who apply certain methodologies, certain scientific principles, etc. Whereas economists operate more like sharman. It's a really interesting episode. And I thought she was really funny. But I wanted to tap into this, because you mentioned that you have a Scoring Matrix, and you had this sort of discipline of how you were going to tackle this problem. Tell me a little bit about those tools that you've been using.

Nick 8:48
Matt is a pure systems engineer, he's got lots of experience. So he brought to the table Venn diagrams and kind of mind mapping exercises where we could really hone down on a particular idea, but also really expand and understand how wide a range if we're looking at our environment, everything that we could possibly think of regarding the environment to make sure that the stories, made sure they link consistently back to what we wanted to do. I suppose moving a bit forward on from once we captured the idea, we had no idea how to write books. We are all engineers, we prefer maths over English. I'm sure Matt will agree. And we decided to try and design it. So we had no idea how to rhyme. So we went to some bookshops. So we spent four months basically writing up all the books that we could find the best rhyming books. And then we did some pattern analysis and sort of book structure and syllable counts on all of the rhyme such that we could then try and find our own winning formula. And yeah, that was a really fantastic way for us to learn because we were then able to sort of critique our work as we went along with some form of confidence that if we kept that formula, we will have something at the end we'd be happy with.

Katherine Ann Byam 10:01
Oh my god, I've never heard of someone writing a book using a mathematical algorithm. You sound like my partner who's a data scientist. Let's go into a bit about the journey. So in terms of conception to production, you talked about the four men sort of doing the research and background. But I think doing an illustration and children's book takes a bit longer than that. So tell us about that journey from conception to production.

Matt 10:24
Yeah, so the illustrations were a funny one. Really, the original plan was to do everything off of our own backs. If we needed to learn a new skill, learn a new piece of software, find something new, we would do it ourselves. illustrations, when we first tackled illustrations were like, right, okay, let's, let's have a go ourselves. So we did actually do some drawings ourselves. And I think I bought like digital, like art pads that you can get to plug into your computer for, I bought two of them, one for me, and one for Nick and John sort of share between them. So we could have a go at digital artwork, and we produce some pictures. But it takes so long, it's such a like if you haven't been doing it and the hours that you have to put in to master it and to get great at it just weren't good enough. And it didn't really live up Nick, did it to our expectations, we had a picture in our head of what it should look like. And then when we tried to draw it, it was appalling. It was abysmal. So we went through like looking at different illustrators. So we just sort of, we wanted to choose a style. So we had a couple of friends who are into illustration. And I have a friend of a friend that I talked with, and we did a couple of sort of meet and greets, and, oh, here's our idea. Draw, what do you think this would look like? And it didn't quite work out, letting the artist sort of just finding an artist and letting them create it. So we decided to trawl the internet basically for styles that we liked. So we almost did a bit of a, not a Scoring Matrix, but we assessed and evaluated what it was we liked about different types of illustration, and different colour palettes and things like that. And we we came together and we sort of chose, it's really difficult to find a common style that we all liked between the three of us. But we had some like ideas that we thought yeah, it needs to be bright. It needs to be detailed. We like the detail it needs to be digital art not sort of natural art, like drawn. And then, Nick, through hours of trawling the internet, found a lady in Georgia, in the country, Georgia. And we reached out to her, we had a look at her website. And it was fantastic. And then I don't know how many months you spent Nick trying to bend her arm into taking on our project.

Nick 12:57
Six months, got turned down four times.

Matt 13:01
So yeah, we were persistent. And we finally got her on contract to do the first one. And, yeah, we couldn't have been happier in terms of how she visualised Scout. Lots of what you see in the illustrations is actually in the first book, especially is coming from us. So we have designed what it should look like in the perspective. And then we sort of do a really naff pencil sketch, and then send it to the illustrator. And then she does a better pencil sketch, we sort of back and forth on that. And then she does a colour digital image that's sort of blocky, so we know what colours she's going to use. And then when we're happy with that, she will then do the full detailed drawing like, over 40,000 brush strokes per picture. Basically, there's hundreds of 1000s of brushstrokes digital brushstrokes in the book. The second book, we've let her have a bit more creative flair, let her do her own thing a bit more. We've got our working relationship going. But the interesting thing is we've never physically spoken to her. So Nick does it all through Facebook Messenger. So yeah,

Nick 14:18
Hundreds and hundreds of texts a day. But we we do also to add to that we've got a really detailed kind of storyboard description. So down to almost exactly what the characters are kind of like doing, their kind of like expressions, easter eggs, and because we design and wrote all three books first, we were then able when we came to the illustrations to think we're way ahead and be able to basically make references to each book throughout each book. So hopefully when we have our second book out, people will certainly see and start spotting those kin of easter eggs and kind of correlations between them.

Katherine Ann Byam 14:55
That is brilliant though and the illustrations are absolutely wicked. So for my listeners, if you really want to go check out these books, they are awesome. They're fantastic visual content as well as, you know, reading content. So let's move to some of the critical reviews you've received so far. So I know that you're working with schools, and you're having some some different types of collaborations with with education facilities and buddies. What has been sort of the feedback you're getting and what's garnered the most interest?

Nick 15:25
We've had, we've had a bit of a yeah, getting feedback from, our perspective, who are not authors is quite tricky. And it's kind of hard to take, I think we first sent our scripts out to some librarians who literally tore them apart. And said they didn't rhyme, said, why have you got a poison dart frog as a friend and kind of really hit us back and we were going like, we just kind of too close to this. And maybe we can't see that it's any good. But then we tested it a lot with schools and kids and fundamentally, like kids love it. They love finding Vinnie, they love rhyming. And that's kind of why we chose rhyming, because we it's such a powerful tool when it's done right. And yeah, and obviously, you've seen the illustrations, they're just, you know, so essential to have good illustrations, like I've just actually applied for the Guinness World Records to see if they will actually take it as a, or consider it as a world record for the most digital brushstrokes in a book and trying to credit Ann. And because I couldn't see it on their website. So I thought we have to go for it because it's, yeah I think there's 483,000 brushstrokes, in it and it took 11 months full time to illustrate. It's just a piece of absolute stunning work.

Katherine Ann Byam 16:32
Yeah. Wow. That's incredible. And what have been the reactions from kids? So let's, let's ask Matt, this one,

Matt 16:39
They've been really good. In general, we've done quite a lot of virtual book readings, to schools. And we've started doing like physical book readings, now we've been to a number of schools physically. And we were down in Plymouth a few months ago, or a couple of months ago for Plymouth children in poverty, where that charity donated our books to all the schools. And we went round for World Book Day and read to various schools and then did a litter pick at the end of the day. And we read to different age ranges as well. Year one, two and three normally, are the classes that we read to in primary. But yeah, generally the children have had positive feedback, especially if you engage them on the pictures like if they find they've got Vinny to find on every page, like the poison dart frog, and also the message we've got in the back of the book. And each book will have like a glossary. It's like a description of questions that you can ask about the topic of the book. So it allows after you've read the book to really explore the message and the action that Scouts trying to get everyone to take. My own children personally, have been fantastic. Before we had the book, like physically, they liked it, and they went along with it. And then as soon as you have a physical book, it's great to have them say, like I said, on our bookshelf at home, and it's great when I pick it.

Nick 18:00
We also want to add further to that we've had a number of kids basically dress up as Scout for World Book Day, which was incredible. And we get basically sent posters all the time and pictures of basically kids, you know, taking action and actually joining Scouts team and and actually litter pickingin. And yeah, we've got from an educational perspective, we've got so much like material coming in from schools. It's just fabulous to see.

Katherine Ann Byam 18:21
That's incredible. So is Scout going to become a Disney character anytime soon, Nick.

Nick 18:27
Yes. I basically, I think, from our perspective, we wanted her to be as world widely recognised as Dora the Explorer, but also kind of had that Captain Planet feel, which was kind of a cartoon back in the day, that really sort of was a positive role model. Instead of all the stuff we see now just we just kind of like always fighting and sort of we want we want to see some more positive action. Yeah, once the three books are out, we've got great ambitions. And we'll certainly be pushing it under the noses of people to see if they would like to consider it as cartoons, hopefully, or other things like that.

Katherine Ann Byam 19:02
Now, this is great. I do think you have that potential. So like, really good going, guys. So how are you juggling all of this with your day jobs?

Matt 19:12
Not gonna lie. It's quite tough. We both work full time. So five days a week, we don't work four days a week and have the odd day to dedicate to it. Obviously, I have two small children. I've also moved into a house that was empty for 11 years before we moved in. So it's got a lot of work that needs doing to it. So Nick does a fantastic job at keeping the momentum on the project going his energy is what what keeps us going really, I only step in when Nick's energy drops a little bit and he needs a little help himself. I try and step in to help with that. But yeah, it is tough is tough. We used to every We used to meet up every Friday afternoon. And then when the pandemic happened, obviously we couldn't meet physically and then meeting virtually just isn't quite the same. And then now I've moved out of Bristol. I am not as close to Nick to just, on an odd evening, just meet up. So, yeah, we're looking to meet up physically more, but it's yeah, dedicating that that time really don't know if you've got anything to say on that, Nick.

Nick 20:22
Yeah, it is extremely tough. I'm sympathetic with Matt and John's sort of situations with the young kids. We've all got really busy jobs with, you know, big teams, that some of us lead I even had to move home for two years, back to my parents to fund the project, which has been extremely difficult. But yeah, ultimately, like all things, for persistence, you've got to just find energy. But like, if things don't work, like it's acceptable to sort of have those low moments, I'll be sprinting and then the mat sort of bolster me up or when I'm on my lows. But we're certainly looking to sort of get people more involved we're sort of looking to get, let's say, a third engineer back involved a new drummer, let's say the ambition sort of project manage and give me that energy that I need. Yeah, I suppose when you reach a goal, when you've actually published something, it's fantastic. And it kind of the wheels come off then. And it's, it's just trying to make sure that you grind out it's so tough with the day job.

Katherine Ann Byam 21:16
I know what you mean, you touched on this probably before we started recording, but I just want to, you know, put that in front of my listeners as well. But you started as three and and now you're sort of two and a half. Tell me a little bit about that.

Matt 21:29
Yeah. So like I said, when we started in 2018, there was the three of us, Nick, John and I, and we all had the same energy, the same input, we were still, we were keen to make this project a success and make it happen. And we were having a lot of fun. I can't remember what year it was, Nick. But we, it was getting to the crunch point of having to form a business rather than just do it as a as a hobby. And that commitment. And like Nick had a real drive and ambition to make this go, to make this go really far. I was sort of in between John was just happy coming up with ideas and dreaming, that it could be a big thing, but not actually necessarily doing something to make it happen. That sounds a bit harsh, but he'll own up. It's like the commitment is high. And it was we had a lot of discussions together when we were forming the business about how are we going to split it who's going to be responsible for what, what are we going to do. And John was just honest with us and said that he was happy to be involved in helping write books and be part of the story. But in terms of the other stuff around it that we were doing. He wanted to do other things with his time. And he was just had a newborn baby as well. And similar sort of house renovation things. He's now gone part time as a stay at home dad. So who knows? He might find some time, but I doubt it.

Nick 22:57
Yeah, I think we actually had, so there's multiple times where we sort of had to sort of reflect on how we were driving it forward. It's hard to sort well, with one person having a vision, bringing everyone along equally. And it caused not any not resentment, but it kind of did cause some form of resistance, because as we were trying to sort of take this forward, we had to have a look kind of like my leadership style to see whether if it was my leadership style, which was causing it say energy to sort of like lower, and whether or not other guys could step up. And I've really like, take my hats off to the guys, we've done really well to be able to manage those conflicts and come out the other side. And, and like Matt said, John, pretty much was just being fantastic and honest, you know that he understood what he wanted from the project, which made things super easy in our first objective was always, whatever we do, we must remain friends after the end of this. And that sort of still is embedded in us really, we need to make sure that that's the last reller.

Katherine Ann Byam 23:58
That's brilliant. And thank you for sharing. And I know that, you know, it's probably tough to sort of experience this and go on the journey that you're going on with so many big dreams and goals. And you know, working with friends, it's there's always tension. There's always creative abrasion, as they call it when you're coming up with creative projects as well. And yeah, so kudos for learning how to manage that. And you know, bringing everyone along till the end. So my next question is going to be what does growth look like for you guys? So we've already touched on sort of the Disney books. So what's immediately next in line for Scout?

Nick 24:36
So we've got three books. So that's where the second book is almost published. And then we've got, we've managed to secure the illustrator for the third book, which is just amazing. What we started, what we wanted to try and do as each book was designed such that we could have this educational resource but also trying to encourage taking action. And we then decided that we wanted to partner with people that were taking action. And to make sure that that message was coherent throughout. And what we want to do is we want to set up charities, that the books can actually fund and we can apply for different funding to the charity that we then can support those kinds of causes that are in the books. There's so many amazing people out there dedicating their time and volunteering to litter picking. They're inspirational for me. And same with with bees with partner colonise, they pitcture dreams where we want to get the book into every school in the UK. So that's number one priority. And we're sort of talking to lots of big organisations to understand whether they would like to participate in that for their social sort of responsibilities within the communities, I really wouold like the idea of basically creating resource sheets that are free for schools to download, because we're currently encouraging STEM because Scout's a problem solver, what we really want to do is be able to use the imagery of Scout as a scientist, as an engineer, as a mathematician. So when the kids see that positive role model, they might then look at maths and go, Oh, wait a second, I could do this too. So we're working with STEM quite closely around the country really, and basically trying to look at different opportunities where we can create different resource sheets. And then globally, I'd love to be able to do that and tailor like curriculums in different countries with those kind of resource sheets. And really grow with partnerships, really. So there's so much to do. There's so much to do.

Katherine Ann Byam 26:21
If for some reason I had a really important listener on this programme, in terms of a big company that you might want to collaborate with. Who would that be?

Nick 26:31
Oh, we've approached quite a few friends of the earth we wanted to sort of approach them to start off with because they had a fantastic bee saver kit. And it was a kind of everything that we wanted to create, which they already had. So we would love to partner with them, especially with the book that we've got which is about the bees, that would just be the perfect partnership. Yeah, well, I suppose we're not really focused on any particular one. It's kind of like, you know, how can we work with, you know, create a good relationship that sort of promotes Scout but also helps other people with their organisation? So, Matt, have you got any?

Matt 27:05
Well I don't know if, like Chris Packham from Spring watch, or David Attenborough foundation would listen to your podcast. But our third book is about loss of habitat of like animals, specifically UK, endangered animals, and how we can help take action to improve the habitats of local animals and recognise the problems that with having astroturf grass and things what that brings to, to our local wildlife. And yeah, it'd be great to be able to have even a testimonial from, from any of those guys, I'd love to go on spring watch.

Katherine Ann Byam 27:50
That's brilliant. So I want to ask another question. And this is more to do with our education systems as a whole. And like, I know, this is a really fun project. And it's a very engaging one. It's very problem solver oriented as well. Do you think that the way we educate kids today needs to radically change? And would you like to see more sort of problem solving and sort of situation creation in the classroom?

Matt 28:16
Wow, that's a really tough question. Because we are not teachers. And we have friends like my next door, neighbours, both my next door neighbours are both teachers. And they work incredibly hard at their jobs. And I know how tough it is to be a teacher of the schools that we've been in as well, in terms of what education are they getting, from what I've seen, there's quite a lot of red tape for teachers to be able to, before they actually get round to teaching. And the message, I think the messages are really good in most schools at the minute and they're tackling lots of different issues. And there's so many things that need to be looked at, when you're educating young people, diversity and inclusion, religion, the environment as, health and well being. I don't think it needs to change the actual structure, because I don't know as much about it. But I think more funding needs to go into it to help it be as good as it can be.

Nick 29:11
Yeah, and I think, from what I've seen in schools is there's certainly a really large commitment by schools to sort of have eco committees and get kids engaged early with the environment, which is fantastic. And I think most schools then try and aspire to join eco schools and the green flag sort of award system. And I think I might have to just basically err on what Matt said, and I think it just comes down to funding you know, when we have more funding and more publicity and marketing focus around those subjects. I think that's when you'll start seeing a bigger commitment level and then change hopefully in schools.

Katherine Ann Byam 29:44
If this scenario was that we could not do schools the way we do them. And we had no more funding, you guys are problem solvers, remember that? What would you do, what would you change, how would you reshape it? What would you do? a radical question?

Matt 30:02
How would we change the educational system? Right? Okay. (Not a biggie!) I think the first thing we'd have to do is figure out what's important, we'd have to identify what's really important. Is it that children need to be able to spout off facts about a specific subject in a exam? Or is it that we need to teach our children how to live their lives as best they can, whilst exposing them to focus areas and like maths or science to allow them to go into those subjects, if they choose? I, that's what I would do. There's so many graduates and things that we see at work as well that come out. And some of them, they can do so many sums and integrate these crazy formula. But can they boil an egg? I don't know. But life skills, I think are so important. And teaching those in schools needs to be something that changes I think.

Nick 31:10
That was a great answer. Yeah, it's leading towards to problem solving, I think problem solvers. And being able to physically basically recreate and learn through activity, I think that's such a big thing. And I think we are actually seeing that in schools, a lot of that, instead of us just creating sort of standard resource sheets, like colouring in, but they're not that teachers are far more open to activities where the kids are getting involved by building sort of spaghetti bridges and trying to work out whether they're gonna hold them or marshmallow spaghetti towers, and it's that creative hands on approach, which I think is definitely more beneficial for children, rather than, like Matt said, you know, having to sort of study for exams, I'm trying to think that's where I would naturally sort of lean towards, but it comes down to again, what matters is what is important.

Katherine Ann Byam 31:57
Yeah, perfect. Thank you. I had to squeeze that out of your story. So how can people engage with Scout and your work,

Nick 32:05
We've got a number of social media platforms, we've got our Instagram account, which is called Stop underscore dropping underscore litter. And that really showcases how incredible our talented illustrator is you can see almost, her penwork and how she does it on an iPad, which is just crazy. Like, I saw pictures of her doing some work. And she's just sat there at a football pitch with her son doing work, which is just crazy. So definitely worth a look there. Our website is where you can basically get the book. And that kind of gives a good overview of who we are, the project and things to come, let's say, and I think we might have some long term kind of ambitions to get the book on other platforms as well, to make it more accessible to people globally, because we've had a huge amount of interest globally, through Facebook groups. But we don't currently send the books abroad. So yeah, we'd certainly love to do that.

Katherine Ann Byam 33:02
Much Any closing words from you?

Matt 33:04
I'd just like to say, thank you very much, Katherine, for having us on. It's, always great to talk about our project and reflect on it. I think we've achieved so much in the time that we've had; been able to dedicate to it. We really believe in the message in our books. And we get so much fulfilment out of like visiting schools and like teaching kids and things like that. It's great. So anything like this, I absolutely loved it. Thank you very much.

Katherine Ann Byam 33:32
Okay, so I'm gonna do something that I that I didn't tell you about before. So it's rapid fire questions. So I'm gonna ask you a question. And you just tell me the first thing that comes to your mind as quickly as you can favourite animated movie,

Matt 33:44
The Little Mermaid?

Katherine Ann Byam 33:45
Would you choose a car or a bike?

Matt 33:48
Bike.

Katherine Ann Byam 33:49
Wind or solar?

Nick 33:51
Wind

Katherine Ann Byam 33:51
Book or audio?

Nick 33:54
Audio

Katherine Ann Byam 33:55
Why do you choose Audio? You have a great illustrated book. Tell me about this one,

Nick 34:00
I just Yeah, like Matt loves reading books. And I've never been someone to read books I've always like, had a different way of learning through audio and visual so that it was more alien for me to write some books. It really was compared to other people. I just generally read textbooks. And that's about as far as my literature sort of aims and ambitions go,

Katherine Ann Byam 34:20
Which really explains why this is going to be a Disney movie at some point. Great, thank you so much, guys.

Matt 34:28
We get asked that question a lot in schools, what book are you reading at the minute and Nicks says; I don't read

Nick 34:36
Systems functional engineering.

Katherine Ann Byam 34:39
That makes sense. Thank you so much, guys, for joining me today.

Matt 34:42
ckThank you very much, Katherine.

Nick 34:44
It's been a pleasure. Thank you very much.

Katherine Ann Byam 34:48
This podcast is brought to you today by the brand new Women in Sustainable Business Awards. That kicks off in 2023. If you're a business owner who's starting a business with principles of sustainability in mind and you want to preserve some lost skills, some handcrafting artisanal work, or you're a social media manager supporting purpose driven brands, or you're creating fashion or something that is relevant to the sustainability and green transformation. You are more than welcome to join us and to get involved in these awards. Check out our group on Facebook women in sustainable business, or follow the podcast where ideas launch on Instagram to find out more

073 A Subscription to Heal the Planet

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About this Episode

Marie Lockwood is a teacher and the founder of Rebyl Vybes 

Rebyl Vybes - Helping you to enjoy life's little pleasures in a sustainable way.

She and her mom prepare and ship home kits for those looking to start on their eco journey and pamper boxes so that you can indulge in some guilt free pleasure on a subscription model basis.

Sam Pitman is an occupational therapist and the Co-founder of Eco Essex, an online community supporting you on your eco journey.

Tune in to learn more about how they are making an impact.

Subscribe to Where Ideas Launch

Connect with Marie and Sam

Episode Transcript

Katherine Ann Byam 0:00
I've just had the most brilliant conversation with a teacher and an occupational therapist two business owners who are helping you modify your views and your approach to plastic. Let's hear a little bit about why this matters.

Marie Lockwood 0:13
My class, there's 26 children and all 26 children now reuse their water bottles that we used to bring in plastic bottles to school. And over the last couple of years, we've sort of tried our best to change their opinions on that through education and allowing them really to find the facts themselves. So 26 Children now bring a reusable bottles in my class, and added that up, that is something like 5122 plastic bottles saved by my one class in a year. Now, times that by all the classes in the school and all the schools in the country it's huge.

Katherine Ann Byam 0:58
This is season five, the great debates of our times, Season Five will be centred around the great debates. And we will be comparing and contrasting different viewpoints on various topics that are consuming the public discourse at present. The reason I've decided to take this approach is because we, or at least many of us, are losing the skill of debate. And I think this is an essential skill for us all to practice once more. I don't see how we get to the point of saving the world and saving our planet. If we don't know how to discuss our differences. I also think that the solution to most of our challenges is somewhere in the spectrum of views but never a type of extreme. I will be working with guests to curate the content and discuss beforehand, I will understand their positions their areas of genius, and navigate my questions around that so that the conversation is challenging and stimulating without being combative. I hope you enjoy season five of where ideas launch the Sustainable Innovation podcast.

Marie Lockwood is a teacher and the founder of rebyl vybes, rebyl vybes helps you to enjoy life's little pleasures in a sustainable way. She and her mum prepare and ship home kits for those looking to start on their eco journey and pamper boxes so that you can indulge in some guilt free pleasure on a subscription model basis. Sam Pitman is an occupational therapist, and the co founder of eco Essex, and online community supporting you on your eco journey. Hi, Marie and hi, Sam, it's great to have you both on where ideas launch.

Read Lockwood 2:33
Thank you for having us, lovely to be here.

Katherine Ann Byam 2:36
Wonderful to have you both. So I'm going to start with the truth. So I feel guilty every week when I take my trash out. And it's full of recycling and landfill waste. Still, even with my greatest efforts to look at things in my kitchen, look at things in my bathroom, I'm still producing a significant amount of waste to landfill. And even just buying a lot of plastics that are single use in some cases, because I can't seem to find another option. Or it's just not a convenient option. Why do you think it's so hard for people who care about the planet to give up their comforts? And what can help us take the next step? That's the usum.

Sam Pitman 3:20
I think there's so many reasons why we don't want to make those changes. And I think some of it is generations and generation of lifestyle. But you can't just change that overnight, you know, our parents generation the way they were brought up, you can't change that overnight. And I think however many years it takes to, for us to have been moulded in this way, it's going to take time to mould us back out of that way. But also, I think there's so many things about our lifestyle that are just easy and convenient. And the lifestyle we have now you know, in Western society, is so consumer based, but you know, we're driven to also think that things make us happy. So if we buy things that'll make us happy, which it does for the short term, right? But it doesn't give us long term joy, but that's what we believe. And so we believe that these things give us comfort and that we need them. And actually, it's really hard to give up that when that's almost what you've been led to believe - I need these things in my life. I think the other thing as well is it can be scary. So even if you want to change your comforts, sometimes it's easy, well it is, it's easier to conform with others isn't it? Always it's easier to conform than it is to actually stand up for what you believe in and be the odd one out. So I think there's so many challenges that we have to face in order to make these changes.

Katherine Ann Byam 4:39
What do you think was the simplest steps for you to take when you made your initial changes I know with a family as well. You know, it changes the game a lot. So there's a lot more things that you need to balance and juggle.

Sam Pitman 4:53
I think being realistic and not aiming for perfection. So for example, when I did cloth nappies, I used cloth nappies with all of my children. But I won't ever say that I used cloth nappies 100% of the time, because it came with it's own challenges. And I didn't want to go out and like have to carry the loads of cloth nappies that are bigger, it's just loads of these reasons; there's more washing, you know, we've twins I have enough washing to do, I did not want more washing. So, you know, rather than us thinking that we have to be black, and we have or we have to be white, it's okay, just to do your best. So I say I use cloth nappies, I don't know, maybe 75% of the time. And that's all I could manage. And it's the same with anything, it's almost like, you know, to be vegan as well, like, amazing if you can be that dedicated to be fully vegan, and I'm not there yet. I'm not at that stage of my own journey. But I'm trying to eat vegan most of the time, there's, I think, as well, if you can be realistic, and not have to aim for perfectionism, that will be really, a really good goal.

Katherine Ann Byam 4:57
So Marie, tell me a bit about rebyl vybes, because I invited you to the show, because I really like the idea of what you're doing. And I want to get into what was behind starting this brand for you, how you came up with the idea, how you decided to do it.

Marie Lockwood 6:13
So I just like to start by saying, I totally agree with Sam starting to make changes any way that you can. And being realistic with them is absolutely one of the most fundamental things you can do because I am not a perfectionist. And I don't, I don't want to come on here and portray myself as somebody that is absolutely plastic free. Because I'm certainly not I'm not there either. And it's convenient at times. And in a busy lifestyle. That's sometimes it's a lot's that takes over. I did start rebyl vybes, because of a frustration that I was becoming more and more aware of during lockdown, there was a huge rise in subscription boxes. And probably like Sam said, because you wanted to make yourself feel good. And you bought something nice, cause you couldn't go out of the house, you know, you did something to make yourself feel better. And to get something nice delivered through the post was was great, if that's what you wanted to do. But I was getting more and more frustrated, because so many subscription boxes I was seeing online, were absolutely filled with single use plastic waste from the packaging of them and the contents of them. And I was actually discussing it with my mum. And we were saying, you know, why are people not looking for something different? So we decided at that point that actually, okay, we had an idea why were we just gonna keep discussing it? Why didn't we do something about it? Because if somebody else can start a business up and get lots of sales for all this plastic waste, why can't we do the same for something that's more sustainable, and really, that is where rebyl vybes started. The name itself, which chose rebel as in rebellion. So rebellion against plastic waste, particularly single use plastic waste, and the logo was really created because we live in a very rare location, we're very close to the sea, we're surrounded by the forests, lots of pine forests here, the Merrylands things like that. So the logo, we wanted something that sort of represented us, where we come from, and therefore that's, that's where our actual logo came from. But we do want to provide an alternative. I think getting a gift box through the post is a great idea. Getting a sustainable gift box is an even better idea.

Katherine Ann Byam 8:37
I absolutely agree. I think that receiving any box anything in the mail that's not a bill, there's a lot of excitement, right? It's actually generates a lot of positive energy and to have something that's actually useful that's not going to make you feel guilty. Is really important I guess what I tend to get like people still like giving gifts you know and giving gifts as a nice idea but when you get the 15th tiny bottle of cream that you're never going to use, you know you're going to just lose it in your handbag again, you know versus you know, getting a little package that's biodegradable that you can plant some seeds, you know, something like this, it just changes completely how you feel about that box. So what's inside your subscription box? What's the potential impact to someone like me who wants to sort of cut waste overall? Tell Tell me about your box.

Marie Lockwood 9:31
Okay, so we have two different boxes. We started off with a pamper box. So inside that is a range of different products. They are bath products, beauty products, body creams, soaps, shampoo bars, something nice maybe like a nice, scented bodywash. But everything inside the box is single use plastic free. It's also bought from other small businesses. So it's sourced from within the UK to try to limit the carbon footprint that we have. And also, most of the bottles, for example, the body wash, for example, is glass bottles. So they're reusable, I reuse mine for lots of different things, I would totally say that anything that can be used is included in it. So the boxes we reuse the boxes for school. So I'm a school teacher as well as business owner. So I have a couple of people at school also that buy our boxes and we use them at school for lots of storage. And things such as that. The other box is a new one it is, it started out to be an equal sort of box where each month will be something different. And this is where Sam comes in. So I met Sam, just through a group on Facebook, and we got chatting, and we decided that Sam would be a really good addition to the box. And she was going to be able to provide people with the sort of educational side of things or tips and useful. Hence, she runs her own group successfully. And we thought that, that would be a really good twist on a different type of box. So in our home boxes are a range of different sustainable products that you might have as an easy swap for essential items. And they are really things that you would use in everyday, like scrubbing brushes, reusable Kitchen rolls, things that you might be able to make a really useful equal swap with, they are going to change. Okay, so we we don't want to be in a situation where we're recreating lots and lots of waste. And I think I've quickly learned that, actually, although the idea behind our box was a really good one to start with, it needs to evolve into something better. So instead of having our original idea, which was going to be a different box per month, so ultimately kitchen box, and then maybe a bathroom focus, we're going to change it to actual home kits. So you have a starter kit, and Sam will still be a part of that box, where this kit will set somebody up for an equal journey. So you're going to be able to get a box delivered, which will have lots of different sustainable options. It'll be ideal for if you're maybe for example, if you're moving house, or you're getting your first house, it could be ideal for a student or somebody that wants to start out when more sustainable journey. So that's the way that we're going. And by doing that it also limits any unnecessary waste, because we don't want to be adding to people's purchases and buying multiples of other things when actually, we're trying to do the opposite.

Katherine Ann Byam 12:57
Yeah. And are we allowed to kind of pick and choose what goes into a box every month? Like is that an option?

Marie Lockwood 13:03
At the minute it's not, but it is something that I am looking into. Because what I would eventually like to do is have a selection whereby you can decide whether or not you need certain items, things such as I mean, I have just recently I've started changing as I go, my plastic scrubbing brush that I've had for a long time is out, but not until it was needing to be put out. And now I've got my more sustainable options. So things like that. So yes, eventually, we would like to give options for people to use and choose what they need.

Katherine Ann Byam 13:39
And Sam, what is your contribution to the box. So I know that there aren't many people probably listening to the show who are used to subscription boxes like this, they're probably used to maybe who gives a crap. So they will order the toilet paper and it will arrive every four months or six months or whatever. Or maybe their used to Gusto or HelloFresh to order some food. But what is your contribution from a service perspective to this box? And how does that work?

Sam Pitman 14:06
Well, I mean, I kind of say to people, I'm in the box. I don't have a product in the box, because I don't sell products, but I sell myself in a way that I want to support people I have learned from my own journey and from supporting others and observing others that are making these changes because they are lifestyle changes. And this is, it's about gaining huge lifestyle information to change the way you think about life and you know, the way we live, there's so much to it that actually it can feel overwhelming and daunting for people and you know, that anxiety of like, I do want to do something but I don't know where to start and I don't really have anybody else to talk to about this because, you know, none of my family care about these issues. And so my aim is to support people through mentoring, whether that's one to one mentoring, if they want that tailored support, I come from an occupational therapy background, you see. So I'm very much used to working with people on a one to one basis in order to help people reach their goals. But at the moment, I offer monthly mentoring sessions, which is an idea that I came up with last year. And I wanted to offer that each month that because it's a more affordable option for people because money is, you know, money is important to people, you know, especially at the moment. So the idea is that I can provide support, tips, as well as giving people a community. And I think I've learned so much over the recent years about how important it is to feel part of, and feel connected to, other like minded people. And I try and keep the vibe positive, because this isn't a happy topic, climate change is not a happy topic. But I very much try and keep it as light hearted as I can, when it comes to making sure people end with an action, you know, let's think of something positive you can do. And maybe let's just, let's maybe reflect on something positive you have done this month, because actually, we can always go, Oh, I didn't do very well at that. And I still use loads of plastic, and I still use my car. But again, that's negative. And that's not helpful. So try and keep it positive. And as down to earth and as straightforward as possible. Like, I'm not into complicated words. And things, I just want to make it useful for people that are starting out on their eco journey, really.

Katherine Ann Byam 16:27
That's perfect. And I want to touch on something that you kind of brought up but didn't fully. So you're both collaborating on this. And what I want to say is that a lot of times when you decide to take this journey, whether it be in your personal life, or in a business decision, like you both have made business decisions around this as well. It can feel quite lonely and the decision fatigue, the need to be in integrity with what you're selling, and promoting and stuff like that can can really be daunting. How important is it to have a collaborator, let me start with Marie,

Marie Lockwood 17:03
Really important, I would say I have learned so much from Sam. So I knew a lot of things beforehand, I was really passionate about what I wanted to do, I had a clear idea about why I wanted to do it. And then Sam came along like a breath of fresh air, and really made me think personally about my own life, and what I was doing in it but also looking for my business. And so Sam's really helped me a lot. She's given me sort of a direction. Almost like she's been my personal mentor on this journey as well. And I've joined her groups and know exactly where she's coming from, I know what she does, and how friendly and approachable she is and I knew exactly that she was definitely the right person to collaborate with, we're on exactly the same wavelength. And I feel like she's somebody that offers a real good balance to our business.

Katherine Ann Byam 18:01
And, Sam for you, what has it been like?

Sam Pitman 18:05
Well again, like Marie said, I think when you find somebody you share values with. And you know, you can bounce ideas off each other and support each other. It's really nice, because, I mean, I sit at home for hours a week, on my own on my computer, and I've got so many ideas. I don't know where to start, you know? And yeah, like you said, decision fatigue is like, and so actually the idea of having somebody to share those decisions with and to have conversations with and bounce ideas with people is really lovely. And not just not to feel alone. Yeah, of course, there's financial benefits if you have a successful business, but I don't even think that's why most people do it is because we just genuinely want to make as big an impact as possible. So, you know, you widen your audience, don't you? You know, you can support more people. So I think it's win win. Really?

Katherine Ann Byam 19:00
Absolutely. So, Marie, I'm gonna go back to you. And in terms of the reception of your boxes, so far, what has been the positive sort of feedback and reinforcements in people's behavioural changes that you've seen,

Marie Lockwood 19:15
We have had some really, really lovely positive feedback. Lots of people have commented to say how excited they are when they receive a box. Now, they really look forward to it coming each month, because they don't know what's going to be in it. But they know whatever it's going to benefit, it's going to be something that's going to help a little bit with either self care, or with the other boxes, it would obviously help with a sort of lifestyle choices. They also I hope anyway, that our boxes, inspire people and educate them in some way, shape or form, whether or not it's through Sam involvement in her maintenance sessions or whether or not it just makes them think, you know, I didn't try that before. Maybe, maybe I should try this one now. Because everybody's learning, I'm learning on the journey as much as everybody else is I'm still finding different choices that I can use, I'm still trying out different products, and I'm finding which ones work best for me. So I think it's I'm hoping anyway that our boxes are educating, inspiring and giving a little glimmer of something nice in amongst our busy lives really.

Katherine Ann Byam 20:26
You know, it starts with a spark, right? That's, that's what everyone really says. And when you light that fire, it ripples and ripples after a while, it's similar to me starting this journey where ideas launch as a podcast, when I started it, my aim was to sort of influence my friends, if I'm being honest, like I come from a big corporate background, and you know, all of my friends work in companies who actually have the power to make change, but probably aren't necessarily as passionate about the change. And I wanted to sort of nudge them, right that was my idea behind the podcast to kind of nudge them, let them see that there's, there's possibility not just from a technical standpoint, in terms of, you know, what the great thinkers are doing, and from a business perspective, as well, but also small entrepreneurs, small businesses, people who are just fed up and deciding to do something about it like yourselves, and I think that I didn't know it immediately, because, you know, the initial feedback was great, but then it was like, oh, maybe people aren't listening as much. It's not as big as other podcasts. But today is like, even though it's still a very niche podcast, you know, I have such good feedback, like, the quality of the feedback is just improved and improved. People are really excited to hear these stories, and you know, they really engage in what I'm doing. And it doesn't matter what level they are right from, from the CEOs, to someone who is, you know, just picking up a business for the first time, everyone's excited about what the story and the message is. So I think, definitely, you have to keep going. You have to keep going. And you have to find more ways to collaborate and interact with as many business owners and people as possible. So I'm going to switch to another question now. And there are many who like to challenge the idea of the Sustainable straw and the sustainable toothbrush. So let's explore this a little bit. So I've seen the documentaries of you know, the straws, and in a turtles, turtles throat and you know, getting stuck, etc. Yet, we know that straws aren't the biggest problem in the ocean, right? Like, the actual biggest problem in the ocean is probably the fishing nets. If we really think about it like that, even though the way that we fish the way that commercial fishing is done. Or if we look at things like the toothbrush, typically, we still got plastic in the bristles, right? There's still nothing that we can yet do about that. So what are your thoughts about putting these products together and transitioning to sustainable products? Even knowing that, you know, it's not, it's not fully there, what are your thoughts on that?

Sam Pitman 23:09
I have two views it's like do the stuff that's really easy, that's not going to stress you out and overwhelm you. But also, as you don't stress about all the little things just do something really useful.

Katherine Ann Byam 23:19
Yeah, you know, I see it in two ways as well, I see that making these small changes is symbolic as well. So this is one of the things one of the reasons I'm excited about Marie's box it's like, this is a symbolic, I am making a shift. And every time I go to the bathroom, and I see this wooden toothbrush, or I see my soap dish that's now you know, there when it's little loofa to absorb some of the soap droppings, so that I can reuse that soap that drops off the soap bar, you know, every time you see these things, it's a reminder of what I've committed to, and having them as things that you deal with every day reminds you of that commitment every day. So it's not just about the item itself. It's about what the item represents. I don't know if you share that, Marie?

Marie Lockwood 24:06
Yeah, absolutely. And in my sort of opinion, I think that all change efforts are positive change it's better than no change at all. As I said before, I'm also a teacher. So through education wise, we are really keen to try to turn that sort of tide on the use of plastic with children that we have in our own classes. So anything that we can actually have an impact with so for example, my class there's 26 children in it and I added up the other day that all 26 children now reuse their water bottles that they used to bring in plastic bottles to school. And over the last couple of years we've sort of tried our best to change the opinions on that through education and allowing them really to find the facts themselves. So 26 children now bring a reusable bottle to my class. And when I added that up, that is something like 5122 plastic bottles saved by my one class in a year. Now times that by all the classes in the school and all the schools in the country is huge, absolutely massive. So, in my opinion, one small change, as long as it's a change for the good is better than nothing. And I think I always like to go back, there's a quote that says I am only one said 7 billion people, I love that. And I think that is absolutely spot on hits the nail on the head.

Sam Pitman 25:42
I think what I like about that Marie is that you've not just inspired like one person, though, you've inspired all that whole class, and I'm guessing your whole school, and all of those families. And that's almost where it's bigger, isn't it, because you can start with one thing. That's what I was saying earlier. Like, if I just do that, but never talk about it, I'm not going to have a huge impact. But when one person does it times, you're whole school. And then that those children have inspired all of their parents and all those families, it ends up having this bigger effect.

Marie Lockwood 26:11
Yeah, and children are sometimes the best people to pressure parents, because they nag at you, and they tell you why you should change it. And they're very honest. And they show you the facts and the figures, and they make you feel a bit guilty. So you tend to want to change. So at the minute, as well as my own class, which they are really on board with everything. I've also got another school, further down the country who's also starting out on a plastic free schools journey. So we're going to do a little bit of collaboration, hopefully, so it will spread. And that's the bigger picture that will join the plastic free schools programme. And we'll try and get our message out across as many people as possible.

Sam Pitman 26:59
But I almost think, for most people, that's almost the obvious starting point, isn't it, of like to get them on board is actually making those simple steps because they are easy, and like the subscription kit, you're gonna have like, it's just easy, there's almost another reason to do it. Because you're taking all the pressure off. And it's easy to do that.

Katherine Ann Byam 27:17
That's awesome. I want to switch now to sort of regulation. So I'm going to tell a story before I comment on this regulatory change. So I've been in London last couple of weeks, cat sitting for a friend of mine, and in an area where you know, the families are well off. So at the schools in the neighbourhood, all the cars that were pulling up were Tesla's. Now, one of the reasons I think that is, is that, you know, London has recently introduced this ultra low emission zone, so you have this additional charge, you still have the congestion tax. So there's loads of charges now for having a car for driving around in a car. And that has prompted a wide scale change and switch to electric cars. So this is why a lot of the mums in this neighbourhood are now driving these electric cars. Now, there's a lot of debates. And you know, I have a friend who's been on this podcast, who really talks about the sustainable mobility transition. And we can argue that, you know, maybe they don't need a car, they can just walk with their kids, perhaps that would have been a better switch. But knowing that people have these hard encoded habits, then perhaps electric vehicles are a nice interim shift, and regulation that supports that preserves the economy, and also promotes, the better behaviours for the planet. Now, we know that the UN has recently reviewed its Environment Programme, and recently passed a resolution to deal with plastics throughout its lifecycle, so forcing companies to sort of deal with their plastic throughout the life of the product. How do you see this impacting how business is done today?

Marie Lockwood 29:07
I think that it's a really good thing that's happened, actually, I think that it's gonna make a lot more businesses accountable, and a lot more transparent. Because at the end of the day, we'll reach a point in this time, where it's actually at crisis level, it's, gone beyond what is ever going to be acceptable. And if something doesn't happen now, then there's gonna be a disaster, that's looming ahead of us, really. I mean, I was looking at facts and figures just a few days ago. And even though I knew how bad the plastic production is for our planet, when you actually look into the facts and figures of it, it's absolutely astounding. And the more worrying thing is the forecast and their predictions for what it might become. So for example, I think it was 400 million tonnes of plastic produced at the minute but its potential as to double by 2040 if nothing was to happen, and given that at the minute, we have a huge problem with plastic pollution entering the seas, I think something desperately needed doing. So I think as much as for some businesses, it might be a struggle to make that shift. I think really, in realistic terms, it's the only way forward, because we're heading for disaster otherwise.

Katherine Ann Byam 30:29
And Sam, your views,

Sam Pitman 30:30
One of the things I'm realising is that small businesses especially don't necessarily see how sustainability is relevant to them. If they're not in and they're not selling the toothbrushes or electric cars, it's almost like they can't relate to it. It's not relevant to their business. So I, you know, the more we can do to enforce businesses to do things or follow these policies, I mean, we have to, like Marie said, we, it's kind of we can't be gentle anymore. You know, yes, it is going to have impacts for business. But I almost see as no choice now we have to, these changes have to happen and businesses have to take responsibility for products, you know, the fact that not only 9% of plastic that can be recycled is actually recycled. And that's a crazy figure like that. That's not on, like in theory, like no plastic ever needs to be virgin produce, again, we have enough plastic to make everything. So yeah, I agree that businesses have to start doing more now.

Katherine Ann Byam 31:24
Okay, so I'm gonna move to rapid fire questions to sort of close this out. I'm gonna, alternate between between both of you. And I did not prepare you for this. So I'm gonna with Marie. So my rapid fire question to you is, what's the most transformational sustainability book you've read?

Marie Lockwood 31:48
Oh, my goodness, you really put me on the spot now because my memory is shocking. To be honest, you know, I don't read books are such I read online documents, and probably one of the ones that really hits home to me as one from the United Nations. It's called pollution to solution. And that is full of really good information, facts and figures that support everything that's really behind my business, everything that I strive to try to do, and it really hits home. Why every business needs to change, not just me as a small business, but huge businesses, everybody. You know, it's our responsibility it's everybody's responsibility, because we've all created, we're all we've all created waste. We all do continue to create waste.

Katherine Ann Byam 32:42
And Sam moving to you. What's your favourite documentary? And why?

Sam Pitman 32:46
Oh documentary? Ah, the one that sticks in my mind the most? I've probably watched in the last month is SeaSpiracy. I mean, it was a bit controversial when there was criticisms after it came out, but you know, there's gonna be there's always somebody's gonna say something negative about these shocking facts, I've never actually eaten fish, because I have some kind of random phobia, thing. But if I did, I would never have been able to eat fish again, after watching that. And I like, Katherine, you said something only about actually, the biggest pollution in the sea is actually not the plastic straws. It's the fishing nets. And actually, the devastation from fishing nets I never knew. And that was a real, real eye opener.

Marie Lockwood 33:29
I actually cried after watching that it was horrible, in a really shocking way, but one that I needed to listen to.

Sam Pitman 33:36
Yeah, exactly.

Katherine Ann Byam 33:38
Marie, what's your greatest lesson? In this whole journey?

Marie Lockwood 33:43
My greatest lesson is probably to not strive for perfection. But to know that actually doing something is better than doing nothing and knowing that what I am doing is as good as I can do at this moment in time. And that is, okay. It's, you don't need to be perfect. You know, we all have our flaws. But we're all trying to learn as we go, and we do what we can.

Katherine Ann Byam 34:11
And Sam what's your biggest dream?

Sam Pitman 34:14
My biggest dream? Oh, wow. Well, obviously, just to reverse climate change completely. Obviously, my dream would be if we could keep under this 1.5 degree. You know, heat rise would be amazing. But if I looked at more personal journeys, my role would be about actually feeling like I actually am making a big impact in within Essex and beyond, which is a subjective goal, which I don't know if I can ever achieve. They can't measure it. But yeah, my dream is to have real real impact in Essex to make differences to individuals and businesses to be more sustainable.

Katherine Ann Byam 34:54
Wonderful, ladies, tell my listeners how they can connect with you. Let's start with Marie.

Marie Lockwood 34:59
So you can find me on Instagram under rebyl vybes or via Facebook. Or you can alternatively you can go on and have a look at my website, www dot rebyl vybes.co.uk

Katherine Ann Byam 35:13
And that's vy BS vibes.

Marie Lockwood 35:16
It is it's slightly different, so it's R E B Y L V Y B E S, we had to be very careful when we were looking into trademarks.

Sam Pitman 35:25
And you just wanted to be a rebel and spell rebel, wrong?

Marie Lockwood 35:27
We just wanted exactly that.

Sam Pitman 35:32
Yep, so, yep, Facebook, Instagram. Eco Essex.

Katherine Ann Byam 35:38
Wonderful. Thank you, ladies so much for coming on the show. I know it's late at night. We had to get the kids to bed before before we did this. Thanks so much for spending the time with me. Thanks so much for having us. Yeah, thank you.

This podcast is brought to you today by the brand new women in sustainable business awards that kicks off in 2023. If you're a business owner who's starting a business with principles of sustainability in mind, and you want to preserve some lost skills, some handcrafting, artisanal work, or you're a social media manager supporting purpose driven brands, or you're creating fashion or something that is relevant to the sustainability and green transformation. You are more than welcome to join us and to get involved in these awards. Check out our group on Facebook women in sustainable business, or follow the podcast where ideas launch on Instagram to find out more

072 Transition Engineering

About this Episode

Professor and Chair in Sustainable Energy Transition Engineering at Herriott-Watt University, Susan Krumdieck is also an Author, Podcaster and Documentarian on Transition Engineering. She brings some incredible insights. Before this recording, Susan said to me, the interesting thing emerging from her sustainable energy journey is that the role of engineering in the economy and policy is huge and not well understood, even by engineers. Today she wants us to dive into the underbelly of the economy where the engineers drive the engines of progress, and destruction… Sounds ominous!

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Episode Transcript

Katherine Ann Byam 0:01
I just had the most fascinating conversation with Susan Krumdieck, about transition engineering versus economics, and how the two play out against each other, and what we can expect to see in the near future, listening to these sound bites.

Susan Krumdieck 0:14
The third thing that I would say economists have got wrong is that they are fulfilling a natural role in human civilisation. But pretending that they're being scientists, they just have too much power in that role. And that role is the role of the shaman

Katherine Ann Byam 0:31
Susan goes on to explain,

Susan Krumdieck 0:33
of clearing some land digging, a mine, doing some productive stuff, you can now do at scales that are going to rock the boat. And so that timeframe within which we've unleashed that is really only since the 50s. And it's very quickly become our story because our shamans have said, Oh, look how clever we are. And therefore we don't question, even though it's only been this one generation out of 1000s of generations, that has created this ability, and liability.

Katherine Ann Byam 1:09
This is season five, the great debates of our times, Season Five will be centred around the great debates. And we will be comparing and contrasting different viewpoints on various topics that are consuming the public discourse at present. The reason I decided to take this approach is because we, or at least many of us, are losing the skill of debate. And I think this is an essential skill for us all to practice once more. I don't see how we get to the point of saving the world and saving our planet. If we don't know how to discuss our differences. I also think that the solution to most of our challenges are somewhere in the spectrum of views, but never a type of extreme. I will be working with guests to curate the content and discuss beforehand, I will understand their positions, their areas of genius, and navigate my questions around that so that the conversation is challenging and stimulating without being combative. I hope you enjoy season five, where I just launched the Sustainable Innovation Podcast. Professor, and Chair in sustainable energy transition engineering, at Heriot-Watt University, Susan Krumdieck, is also an author, podcaster and documentarian on transition engineering. She brings some incredible insights. Before this recording, Susan said to me, the interesting thing emerging from her Sustainable Energy journey is that the role of engineering in the economy and policy is huge and not well understood, even by the engineers. Today, she wants us to dive into the underbelly of the economy where the engineers drive the engines of progress and destruction. Sounds a bit ominous. I think, Susan, welcome to the show.

Susan Krumdieck 2:50
Well, thanks for having me.

Katherine Ann Byam 2:51
So you may not know this, but one day, I think it was in February 2021, I was watching 'Living the Change' a documentary you were in. And I thought, wow. I found you in another one as well. And I thought, Okay, I need to get to Know this person, like, where is she hanging out? So I followed you on LinkedIn. And that's brought us to today.

Susan Krumdieck 3:11
Oh, great. It was worth going on to LinkedIn, then.

Katherine Ann Byam 3:16
No, I do love LinkedIn as a platform to meet interesting people with lots of insights. And usually it's people who like to share their work. So it's great to meet you. So first, for the uninitiated, please, could you explain what you mean by transition engineering?

Susan Krumdieck 3:31
Right? Well, I do understand that a lot of people aren't really that familiar with engineering at all. It's true that when they do surveys of who people trust, engineers come out right at the top. So we might not know what they do. But we're glad they do it. And we trust them to do it. And so if you think about the other types of engineering that you might have heard of: railway engineering, or naval engineering, mechanical, civil, what engineering usually means is making THAT work, whatever it is. So right now, we're at a point in time where our economy, our society, all of the systems that we depend on, and the way we depend on them, will transition to what they will be in the future. So we've had 70 years or so of a kind of pattern that we've gotten used to, and that pattern now changes. And so the engineering of that change, making the change work, is what transition engineering is, and probably you don't want to know, many more details than that.

Katherine Ann Byam 4:39
Well, it's interesting because I liked your work, because you took some really hard things and combine them with some things that generally are not hard at all. So what I mean by that is economics, and the economists, have come up with a number of things that actually don't make a lot of real world sense, no offence to economists, but it's kind of true, right? So there are a lot of, there's a lot of assumptions inside of economics. And those assumptions aren't necessarily true things, yet we base a lot of modelling on them. And I think you're right. Like when I followed your work, I realised, well, yeah, this is what actually made this stuff work. So it's interesting to kind of get into that. So what I want to ask you is, what are your views on what the economists might be getting wrong at the moment? And if you could possibly limit it to three things. I know that can be difficult, and if we can start there.

Susan Krumdieck 5:33
Right, well, the fundamental premise of economics, when I compare that to engineering, throughout all of engineering, we start with fundamentals of physics, or chemistry, statics dynamics, we model those fundamentals with mathematics. And then we use those mathematical models, usually in a limited and understood way. I mean, we know we just have a rude facsimile of something. But we use those models carefully to inform ourselves about how things would work that are hard to understand. And then we build and test and try out ideas and test again, and test, compare our model to the data test and test and test, the one thing I have never seen an economist do is test their model against the data. So that's the number one thing that's wrong; is that they just don't ever have that self inquiry. All right, now, what they have developed, that is quintessentially wrong, is what they call time value of money. Okay, time value of money means that we discount money in the future, because the price of things will go up, our income will go up, our economy will grow. Therefore, the future money is worth less than it is today. And it's a very simple little equation they used but when you apply it, what happens is that you take your hands, you put them over your eyes, and you can't see the future anymore, you become future blind. And yes, that is how we are running full tilt into things that we don't want to go into, because we're being purposefully future blind. All right. Now, you said three things. And I guess the third thing that I would say economists have got wrong, is that they are fulfilling a natural role in human civilisation. But pretending that they're being scientists, or pretending that they have actual information. Now the natural role that they're fulfilling, if that role didn't always exist, from probably the first time more than just a family group got together, then maybe we would be okay. But they just have too much power in that role. And that role is the role of the shaman. So you have people who have experience. the wise people, the people who've been around for a while, you have the people who have power, and they want to make decisions, and they're sort of always the shaman, trying to read the tea leaves or look at the entrails of the bird or through casting the rune stones or whatever, in a way to give the confidence in the decisions. The fact that these shamans exist, it's just part of society. It's not wrong that they exist. But the economist taking on that shaman position and claiming that they actually do know something, and it isn't just for the comfort of divining the you know, what the spirits want, or what the ancestors want, or what the omens are, that's where we've gotten into a bit of trouble. So there; three things.

Katherine Ann Byam 9:04
It's really interesting, you touched on something there that I think is fundamental to our challenge, right, which is that the economy will grow. Right. So there's always this infinite assumption of growth, which we now know, cannot continue the way it has. Well, you know, technically, we've known this for a long time. But we've now all kind of owned up to this fact. Yet, we still see this continuous assumption basis. I mean, every time I talk to my pension advisors, they tell me the same thing. You know, it's just a correction. There's so many times that I've heard these these kinds of rules. And I think, what in your mind needs to fundamentally change right now? And how can we support the transition that we want to support?

Susan Krumdieck 9:56
Right, well, what needs to change right now is the story of us. And I think we are seeing it change, maybe not in the most productive ways, in a lot of places, but the old story isn't working anymore. And so new stories will arrive, we will write our new narratives. So I would like to be right about those new narratives and not just destructive, because I can see the old way breaking, right? I mean, it feels good to be in on the smashing, you know, they have those things where they give people; for $1, you can get a baseball bat and smash the computer or something, feels great. But we have to clean up the mess when we're done. So, the narrative of who we are, I know, again, that throughout most of humanity, who we've been, has always been a really important part of our story. And we do love our historical tales and our movies about past events and that, but that's not a very deep look at why we're the way we are. And when I look, I think we need 100 year perspective of the past, because 100 years ago, most of the technology that we like to think we're very clever, and we came up with was already come up with so we're not that clever. But the looming global issues that we have now weren't actually a problem at that time. Inflation wasn't really the way we think of it. The banking system didn't work the way it does now, and what happened was, of course, two giant world wars that changed industry and they changed engineering primarily. How did they change engineering? Number one, some women came into the workplace and had to take over at a time when the companies that existed, that were going to make the machines that were going to win the war, had to cooperate. Before that, before World War Two, they did not have to cooperate. And so you had women and the requirement to cooperate and you've got sort of a change in engineering, which involves standardisation. So that, you know, one company could make all the bolts for 10 companies, equipment, and you would standardise what those bolts were so that they would work because you had to do that. All right. And once you've got standardisation, you can cook a planet, no question, you can level the rainforest. You know what was going on before of clearing some land digging a mine doing some productive stuff you can now do at scales that are going to rock the boat. And so that timeframe within which we've unleashed that is really only since the 50s. So one generation, and it's very quickly become our story because our shamans have said, Oh, look how clever we are. And therefore we don't question even though it's only been this one generation out of 1000s of generations, that has created this ability and liability.

Katherine Ann Byam 13:14
Yeah, that's a really, really clever way to put it. In your working research what countries are you considering to be taking a leading role in terms of how we need to shape change?

Susan Krumdieck 13:27
Right. Well, I'm going to answer that in a funny way. Because one of the things that I have done, in looking at this narrative that we're trying to shape, and understanding we're at a transition point, we are now going to go in a different direction. And we're going to figure out how to do that. And for humanity, it's going to be a moment of evolution. Right? The cultural anthropologists tell us that every time we learned a new thing, like to throw a spear or to write, it actually changed us physiologically and in what we could do and and how we related to each other. And so we're going to have one of those moments of evolution now, where we learn how to correct ourselves, when we're going in a wrong direction. We correct and if you think about cultures, for the, you know, 10s of 1000s of years before the reset era, correction wasn't a thing you would do lightly because probably you were doing the right thing at the moment. Right, you have traditional ways they've always worked the world around you doesn't change fast enough that you need to correct anything. And so that's why I think it is a moment of evolution. So what I've done in my research was to go and work with people throughout the world that I could find, who will not have to correct and so I want to know, are there any roots of corrective techniques or corrective disciplines within people who have traditional economies or traditional ways of doing things. And you can imagine there aren't that many people like that, because colonialism had quite a large reach. But I think I've learned some really important things about this correction. And it is aligned with the transition engineering methodology, the seven steps that we take. So that's really good news. And then the economics of traditional people, I probably won't get a journal paper accepted. Because I'm not an economist, therefore, I can't really write about economics. But the traditional economics is really important, that we learn these things. And traditional economics is funny, because it's not really about growth, it's about balance. And it's about balancing what you would like to do. So new things, new, whatever, that's fine. There's nothing wrong with it, these people aren't stuck in the stone age or anything. But they always balance that against survival. And survival depends on four things. One, having surplus bio capacity, there's way more natural capacity, more nature than we could ever use, that's required for survival. Number two, having way more social capacity than we could ever use. So that always everybody in your society has enough to give that everybody has enough. So the ability to take care of children, the capacity to take care of old people the capacity to help build each other's houses, this is part of survival. Another thing you have to have is equal access to resources. So you can't shut off some people from being able to have fish now from being able to fish. And that doesn't mean that it's required that people all have the same that's not true at all, you know, there's, merit based things and people who work hard to have more or whatever, but you don't limit some people's access to the basic needs. And that's an interesting thing, because our economy doesn't work that way. And the final thing is autonomy. You have to have the freedom to do what you need to do today. So you have to have abundance of freedom, of the ability to give abundance of equity of access, and abundance of nature. And that's survival, everything else you balance against that. So all we need is evolution and rediscovery of our roots, probably.

Katherine Ann Byam 17:40
Yeah. And do you think that there are some good examples, perhaps small subsets of examples where we can actually see this playing out today? I mean, I know that we still have some tribes. And I don't know if you've studied any of those tribes, in the Amazon, for example, or even some indigenous societies, but who you think are really leading in this space now?

Susan Krumdieck 18:02
Yeah, Pacific Islanders, they sort of do that. Like I said, a lot of times people don't end up getting a choice, right, somebody comes and you know, colonises them and sorts them out. But Pacific Islanders are, well, okay, they're not in great shape because of climate change. But you know, they have ways to take care of themselves and each other and so there's that. And then, in Guyana, of course, Guyana just got oil discovery. So I think they're going to struggle now with the resource curse. And here in Orkney, where I'm working, you know, they're really struggling with the transition, but the roots of how to go about, you know, they just say sort yourself out here and work with your neighbours to sort themselves out. I don't think it's sort of a hippie commune sort of idea. But it's just sort of a, just do what needs doing, figure out what needs doing and do it. You know, you asked about countries and I don't think that's the scale at which we see things going the right way. It's more the local level from the ground up, where we see people starting to sort themselves out.

Katherine Ann Byam 19:27
No, that's interesting. I read Kate Raworth's Doughnut economics, which really captures what you're saying, right? So fundamentally, you know, we should be living within a ring, no one should fall through the middle of the doughnut in terms of basic necessities. And we shouldn't be going beyond the parameters of the doughnut in terms of, you know, those real scale tilting events, yet, we still are moving very fast toward some of these scale tilting events. So what do you see as the job of the economist, sorry, of the engineers now?

Susan Krumdieck 20:02
Okay, now this is where it probably a lot of people who might listen to this podcast have kept up with the climate change situation. Maybe they watched huge swaths of the Amazon burning, you know, the news isn't good all around us, it's not great. And so, you know, it can be really hard to have faith. And so you start to have faith in things that maybe are fantastical, and that doesn't get us anywhere, either. So having faith that there is a way; this is a thing that my son, when he was young, really asked me for, he said, Mom, you know, the sustainable engineering, is that going to work? And that's what I was doing at the time, sustainable energy, sustainable engineering. And I actually, because my little kid asked me, I had to take a pause and ask myself, and it is a sad fact that no amount of more sustainable overcomes the unsustainable. And so when I told him, I didn't think that the chances were great. He just said, Well, Mom, you have to figure out what is the way to do it then, you have to do something. So after a lot of thinking, I sort of had a simple idea, which is, well, if unsustainability is the problem, then maybe we work on THAT. And that is bloody simple. And when I started doing research to see okay, does anybody else see this because it seems like one of those inventor moments where something so simple and obvious, just pops out because it is there in the future. And you, you're like, Oh, I'm the first person to see it. That's the inventors moment. And I'm looking around, and I'm not actually seeing it, except I'm finding the same revelation happening throughout history. And the first really big one is in 1911, when a group of engineers when they weren't even a group, it was just some engineers decided to do their job of making goods in factories, but not kill the workers. And that was the beginning of safety engineering. And the trajectory that the industrial technical enterprise was on at that time, was just chewing through human bodies and customers to the things people were making weren't safe for the customers either. And the waste, of course, they were producing wasn't safe for anybody. And so you know, this idea that engineers can do the job that they're good at, and do what society requires just because we call it now duty of care. And safety was just the first one then there was natural hazards engineering, and sanitation engineering, and waste management, engineering and air pollution engineering. And toxic waste management engineering. And every one of those comes after a major disaster in that field. So we can correct. And when these corrections occur, they can occur quite quickly. They're usually pretty simple ideas, the change, which is just well, let's prevent what's preventable. And so that's where I get my hope is that these corrections have happened before. Transition engineering is the next one. And it can happen from within engineering. So we don't even need politicians, none of these previous ones have required politicians to get to get them started. Once they got started, and they were working, then the politician said, yeah, you have to do that. So it's corrective disciplines within engineering, they also are often across all fields. So that's what we're doing transition engineering, it requires maybe a half day of a class, and you too, can become a transition engineer. And the reason it gives me hope, besides that the pattern shows that it should work is that engineers are less than 2% of the workforce. So it isn't like you have to convince people, you don't have to convince people or consumers or politicians or even economists, you just have to convince the few logical people. So there's hope in that, I think,

Katherine Ann Byam 24:44
I think that's a brilliant way to sum up how this has actually played out in the past and make it clear to people, I mean, we're talking about energy transition, and that's the biggest buzzword of the moment. Right. And, you know, we see what's been happening to prices. Where we are. So in Scotland, in the UK, where we're both of us are based right now, what are your thoughts on how that's going? And you know, the decisions that are being made? Do you feel like we're taking into consideration all that we need to, at this point in time, what gives you hope there?

Susan Krumdieck 25:18
Well, energy transition is a funny thing, because in my research group, we did start using that term quite a while ago. And to us, it was pretty clear what it meant. I had already done research on basically all of the renewable energy sources and smart grids and efficiency of buildings. So all the energy engineering, but energy transition is again about taking on the unsustainable. So you know, there, we aren't in the position we're in right now, of using 100 million barrels a day of oil, and putting that much carbon into the air plus the gas plus the coal, same, you know, about the same amount of carbon for each, we are not in that position, because we don't have enough windmills. We're in that position, because we use too much oil. And so laser focus, bring it in, it's about the oil and oil is how you get gas and coal. So you know, oil is the the primary big one, but also gas and oil. So we use about 80% too much of those. And that question of simply okay, how would I downshift 80% of what is used right now in whatever it is I'm doing as an engineer, and how do I help end users of the system that I am going to change to understand and benefit from that change? There you go. There's transition engineering right there.

Katherine Ann Byam 27:02
No, that's brilliant and really clear. So what projects are exciting you at the moment that you're working on either with Heriot-Watt or as an advisor,

Susan Krumdieck 27:12
Right, well, at Heriot-Watt, I've been real busy. The last couple of years that I've been here setting up something called an island centre for net zero. All right, well, the world needs another centre, like it needs a hole in the head. There are plenty of centres. But I went ahead and took this island centre for net zero because I saw this as the toehold for that beginning of transition engineering, we don't need another centre for something. We need 100 transition engineering courses, research groups, you know, just the professional organisation, we just need to get on to training and executing the transition engineering work. So I've got a transition engineering course that will be delivered online. And that will be starting in August. That global association for transition engineering is based in the UK, even though it does have almost 100 members in New Zealand, because that's where we started. But it's legal entity is in the UK. And at Heriot-Watt University, the president of the university, read my book. And he got it he's an engineer as well. And so the buy in from Heriot-Watt university that you know, what we are one of the key universities that really brought the coal age into existence, and then the oil age and then the gas age, that's what we've been good at. And so we want to be there, we want to be that first place where transition, the energy transition gets rolled out, and how it's going to work. And we are working with the oil and gas industry on that proposition, because that's how it's going to happen. So you know, I think that's what's got me excited it's just really, you know, like, at the beginning of the race, when Usain Bolt puts down his foot there on the block, and the other ones back behind him, and you know, it's gonna, it's all on it's gonna happen. That's where we're at here. Yeah. So that's quite exciting.

Katherine Ann Byam 29:27
It's really important work. And thank you for giving of yourself to do this work. The other question that I wanted to tap on, is this whole conversation about space and space travel and, you know, creating this alternative of Mars. What are your thoughts on this?

Susan Krumdieck 29:47
All right, so somewhere back at the beginning of the conversation, we said we're at a point where the story of us is starting to waver, right, our 1950s story of us as you know, building giant cities and going to the moon. And you know, that story of us, it's starting to waver, it's falling apart, it's not working the way we thought it was going to. And so the new narratives start to come in. And in this era, we are going to get the age of silly, okay? It's gonna happen. No question about it. And, you know, I don't know, we're looking for that new story. And so somebody with a story can always pop in, and tell us a whopper. And it'll have our attention for a while, and it'll distract us from the problems of the day. But yeah, be aware of that, that we're going to have a lot of distractions. And in my book, if people care to get it, I use sort of these funny tales, these stories, to depressurise the situations we're in by by using these little stories, and then I've seen people be able to then pop back to that story, to just say, okay, look, I get that we're in that situation again. So the one that sort of fits, this is the emperor's new clothes. In a kingdom, where things have gotten out of control, and the king now thinks he has to have a spectacular new outfit every hour, there's going to be some nonsense merchants turnout. You can bet.

Katherine Ann Byam 31:21
Okay, Susan, tell everyone how they can get your book and stay in touch with you.

Susan Krumdieck 31:25
Well, my book is called 'Transition engineering; building a sustainable future'. And the book is published by the CRC Press, which is a textbook publisher. So I do apologise ahead of time, it's about three times as expensive as Kate Raworth's book. But it is available on Amazon. And if you just Google transition engineering, it's easy enough to find,

Katherine Ann Byam 31:50
Yeah, perfect. Thank you so much for spending time with us today. I've really enjoyed this conversation. I love your insights, and thanks for what you do.

Susan Krumdieck 31:59
Well, thank you for having me.

Katherine Ann Byam 32:00
This podcast is brought to you today by the brand new women and sustainable business awards that kicks off in 2023. If you're a business owner who's starting a business with principles of sustainability in mind, and you want to preserve some lost skills, some handcrafted artisanal work, or you're a social media manager supporting purpose driven brands, or you're creating fashion, or something that is relevant to the sustainability and green transformation. You are more than welcome to join us and to get involved in these awards. Check out our group on Facebook women in sustainable business, or follow the podcast where ideas launch on Instagram to find out more.

071 The Ins and Outs of Migration

071 The Ins and Outs of Migration

About this Episode

My guest today is Jenny K Wright owner and consultant of Nomad Consulting. Jenny has been either working or volunteering with migration and migrants since 2001. She's relied on her project management research and communication skills to dedicate over a decade of her life to consulting for nonprofits and international organisations worldwide. She is currently working for the International Organisation for migration, IOM having globe trotting around half the world and soon to be living in her 10 country. Jenny is used to thinking on her feet, eating questionable food and living out of a suitcase, directing her Knack for writing to social media. She gained over 40,000 LinkedIn followers in a year. And she is in the process of launching her own blog on migrants guide to share hers and other migrants experiences of being on the move and living abroad.

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Episode Transcript

Katherine Ann Byam 0:00
The best of the life lessons I've ever had, have come from travelling and living in different cultures among different people. Yet, we see so many frown upon migration and look upon migrants as something bad for their countries. I had a conversation with Jenny Wright to find out why she thought that was,

Jenny K Wright 0:20
I do think it's easier to relate with other people that that share a common history or their you know, common demographic, culture, religion and so on. And I, that is one portion of it and the fact that their neighbours would be another component, the it's something that it's it's harder to accept people that you feel like maybe somebody else should have accepted first, while when they are at your doorstep, it makes more sense to open the door.

Katherine Ann Byam 0:54
This is season five, the great debates of our times. Season Five will be centred around the great debate. And we will be comparing and contrasting different viewpoints on various topics that are consuming the public discourse at present. The reason I've decided to take this approach is because we, or are at least many of us losing the skill of debate. And I think this is an essential skill for us all to practice once more. I don't see how we get to the point of saving the world and saving our planet. If we don't know how to discuss our differences.

I also think that the solution to most of our challenges is somewhere in the spectrum of us have never at either extreme. I will be working with guests to curate the content and discuss beforehand, I will understand their positions, their areas of genius, and navigate my questions around that so that the conversation is challenging and stimulating without being combative. I hope you enjoy Season Five Where Ideas Launch the Sustainable Innovation podcast.

Welcome to this episode of the ins and outs of migration.

My guest today is Jenny K Wright owner and consultant of Nomad Consulting. Jenny has been either working or volunteering with migration and migrants since 2001. She's relied on her project management research and communication skills to dedicate over a decade of her life to consulting for nonprofits and international organisations worldwide. She is currently working for the International Organisation for migration, IOM having globe trotting around half the world and soon to be living in her 10 country. Jenny is used to thinking on her feet, eating questionable food and living out of a suitcase, directing her Knack for writing to social media. She gained over 40,000 LinkedIn followers in a year. And she is in the process of launching her own blog on migrants guide to share hers and other migrants experiences of being on the move and living abroad.

Katherine Ann Byam 2:50

Jenny Welcome to where Ideas Launch.

Jenny K Wright 2:51
Thank you very much for having me.

Katherine Ann Byam 2:52
What drove you into this world of migration and supporting people and communities with making this all work?

Jenny K Wright 3:01
Well, actually, I'm a migrant myself. I am half Swedish, half American, and I moved to Sweden when I was six years old. So I had never, that was my first experience living in another country, obviously. And I had to learn this brand new language and quite a different culture than what I was used to. So it made me really appreciate what other migrants might go through. And when my little village in Sweden started accepting refugees, I became extremely interested in the concept of the fact that we move it voluntarily, but some people do not. So that's what got me really interested in and working with migrants and with migration,

Katherine Ann Byam 3:40
identifying as a migrant, what do you see as the sort of advantages and disadvantages of this whole process?

Jenny K Wright 3:48
Well, I think what I really enjoy what I see other migrants also experienced is the kind of fresh set of eyes on on a situation or a way to problem solve things that maybe locals have not been able to see because you just can, you've experienced so many different environments, and you've seen how it could work in other contexts. So that's one of the advantages is a brand new skill set innovation in a way or some kind of creativity that might not already be there.

In terms of disadvantages, it could be just the differences of what you're used to, it can be extremely difficult when it comes to you know, learning a new language or new culture, a new system. And without a support network that you had in your country of origin, it can be quite difficult to overcome those obstacles to be able to contribute with with all those fresh ideas that you you are hoping to bring to your new country. So that's the it's connected in a way both advantages and disadvantages.

Katherine Ann Byam 4:48
It's interesting because for myself, I've been a migrant at least four times. I've also travelled a lot and tdone like two to three months, stints in places and That's really shown me a lot of my belief systems like it's really exposed them, because suddenly they're not relevant anymore. And you know, you show up in this new circumstance and you're like, wow, okay, that's new, that's different. How do I adjust? Here, how do I incorporate this when I go forward into the next experience? So it's always been essential to my growth, I think that I've moved around so much, I don't know how you reflect on that?

Jenny K Wright 5:28
Absolutely. I think that's one of the My greatest strengths. And then I usually do point that out to employers or to others and saying that one of the things I think, is the greatest experience for me, and what I think I learned more of than I did in school or the university is, is just travelling and living in a completely different environment. And I've, I've lived now in nine different countries, and quite soon will be my 10th country. And just like you said, you move into this new environment. And it's, it's incredibly interesting to learn all about that new country and the new culture, the new language, whatever it may be. But it also teaches you about yourself, and about views of the world that you didn't realise you had or biases you didn't even realise you had. And I think that's what really shows that how you can bring something to that that new environment, and you can you can take that with you when you go. So there's often that that that idea. And I'm curious if you've experienced that also, the idea of reverse culture shock, when you come back to your country of origin, the fact that you don't really understand why do we do it this way? I don't understand that anymore. But it was completely natural when you live there. Because you've experienced something different. You're you're almost it's almost like moving to a new country, even though you're moving back to your own country.

Katherine Ann Byam 6:39
Actually, I actually now think that I can't move back to my own country. Like I think I've changed too much to move back. Which is, yeah, it's exactly that it's exactly that sort of reintegration, sort of fear that you have, like, I'm not sure I can.

Unknown Speaker 6:55
Absolutely. I mean, I am very proud of the countries that come from, I think they're amazing, but I have no desire to live there. And I think it's because I've seen what else the world has to offer. And I want to see more. I just I think you just you have that wonder lust or you don't. And I just I don't think I could ever just go back to, to them, even though I'm very happy. And I'd love to visit. I just don't I don't see myself living there anymore.

Katherine Ann Byam 7:19
Exactly. I totally share that. So we recording this podcast on day 21 of Russia, Russia's, siege and invasion of Ukraine, a situation that is likely to reshape Europe's economy, foreign policy security, the humanitarian pressure is insane. Yet we've seen an incredible level of support across Europe and the world for the Ukrainian people. What are your thoughts on why Europe has been so welcoming to Ukraine, and so hostile in some cases? to othe rmigrants a difficult question?

Unknown Speaker 7:54
Yes. It's an interesting question, though i I can only speculate on you know, my what I personally think I don't know, any good explanation explanations for it. But I do think it's easier to relate with other people that that share a common history, their, you know, common demographic, culture, religion, and so on. And I, that is one portion of it, and the fact that their neighbours would be another component, the it's something that it's it's harder to accept people that you feel like maybe somebody else should have accepted first, while when they are at your doorstep, it makes more sense to to open the door. But I also think there's the, almost like a guilt in a way. And again, this is just me speculating. But I think that Europe feels like they they somehow owe this to the Ukrainians because of how the, especially the European Union, maybe, but also, NATO, for example, has been expanded East. And this was not something that was completely surprising, because it had been brewing for for quite some time now. So it might also be a form of guilt in a way to end lack of surprise, that they might be more willing to accommodate the Ukrainians than than other countries that they don't feel that same kind of connection to.

Katherine Ann Byam 9:13
Yeah, I mean, I know a lot of people speculate about about race as well and about the treatment of, let's say, migrants to to Ukraine, who were have darker skin colours as well. And do you think that it has anything to do with it?

Unknown Speaker 9:27
Personally, yes, unfortunately, I think that that has something to do with it. It's it's so even though I'm working from Tunisia right now, the my initial and personal contact to the Ukrainian crisis has been and large number of African migrants in like trying to leave Ukraine and being stopped or delayed at the border going into neighbouring countries. It's it's something that again, is anecdotal. I don't know how it wasn't there at the border. I'm not exactly sure what what went on there. But it is it is an interesting, interesting thing because it's something that We see also here in Tunisia, where there is a difference between people from when it basically depends on the passport you have, or lack of passport that you have, how welcoming people are for you to come in. Even if you're coming in through a regular border post, it should be no different than somehow there are delays, or lack of interest in processing people for for various reasons. And I don't have a good explanation for that. I've been told that has to do with class, but I feel like that's very 1800s. So I don't think it's that anymore. I think it unfortunately has to do with which passport you're holding.

Katherine Ann Byam 10:35
Yeah. And I think ultimately, it shows that this stuff is very complex. So one of the things I was reading recently is that for the UK, because I'm sitting in the UK today, they've decided to adjust their migration policies for Africa, in order to accommodate the Ukrainians as if there's like a quota system that they have in place for people that they will save or rescue from, from dire circumstances. And, you know, I wonder how, how this is really playing out in the population as well, you know, and I, you know, I'm not. So I just want to make this clear, like, I completely think that we need to support Ukraine, when they, when I look, my heart is broken for these people. And in fact, next week, I'm doing volunteer work to organise trucks to get goods and supplies there. But at the same time, I look at what's happening in the wider world. And I look at what's coming at us in terms of climate Jeopardy. And I'm concerned that we're not going to be able to respond appropriately. And I'm scared of the level of human suffering that we could encounter.

Unknown Speaker 11:46
I agree, and I share your concerns, because I think that part of the problem is the way that we are addressing it right now is it's quite outdated in a way. And it's also this, this idea, kind of going back to what we were saying about, you know, being migrants and realising that maybe we don't want to come back to our country of origin. And we have the option to that's something that I feel like is lost somehow. And I've worked with refugees and and since or fresh migrants and voluntary migrants since 2001.

Jenny K Wright 12:17
So a lot of it is anecdotal, I must admit, but I very few of them, regardless if they left because they wanted to, or they had to, after they've lived in another country for a while, they don't really have the desire to go back home. And it doesn't mean that they're not proud of where they came from where or anything with that it's just they got accustomed to where they were living. And they they they now feel like that's their home. And but still, somehow we operate under this, this theory that people will eventually go back. And I think it's wrong way of looking at it. Because it's first of all, it's not about like, where they go there, there should be. They could be going anywhere, in a way I think we need to be more flexible with where we're thinking of where people can go where they can be safe, where can they go, when they can actually be empowered, they should be able to be able to work, not necessarily storing them. And I hate to use that word, but it's sometimes I feel like we just we put them in a refugee camp. And then we feel good about ourselves.

It's not sustainable. And there's something that there's there's somehow no debates or proper debate on the durable solutions, a long term solutions for what's happening later. What is happening if this crisis is turning into a protracted crisis? Like what is the plan for these people to be able to, to provide for themselves and to have a real life that the children to go to school, the you know, the parents to be able to actually go to work, whatever it may be. And I think it's somehow lacking. It's more of this like, Okay, let's take them out of the situation. We'll put them here. And then nobody discusses what happens later. And it's also whenever you have these crisis after crisis, you're constantly focusing on the people that need the most help. Right now, while there are people that are constantly forgotten. They can't necessarily go back to the country of origin. But that doesn't either mean that they fall under the the legal definition of what a refugee is. And I think that's one thing that we have this, you know, the International Refugee Convention is as old as the UN in a way, but there hasn't been proper reforms to adjust to today's world. And I think that's just one of those challenges that we need to to think about is what happens next, what is the long term plan for these people? Because assisting them today, and having no long term plan is not assistance.

Katherine Ann Byam 14:35
What What are your thoughts on the kind of solutions we should be putting in place? What sort of reforms are you you're looking to shape as well, in the work that you do?

Jenny K Wright 14:45
Well, one thing that I think is really important is the idea that and I think it's something that we is one of the positive things that came out of COVID If I may say so, is the idea that people realise you don't have to be physically present in one office or in one country to be able to do your work. And I really been pushing this for several years long before COVID. Just because there's, my background is in risk management, I'm always looking at, like, what happens if you can't make it to work for Sunday. And I always try to get employers to think about, you know, you have parents that are or caretakers, or you have someone who has a disability that prevents them from going to the office, but not necessarily not doing their job. So you have all these different reasons why people might not be able to have a traditional job, but still would be an amazing asset to any employer. And someone who is refugee by that termination or displaced in some way, that having those either remote online digital jobs available to them, would really help because you could be anywhere, literally, and you could be able to still provide for yourself. And it's something that we need to get out of this this mindset that you have to be there in person and doing the work and trying to figure out a way for work to be global. And what does that look like in terms of taxes and social protection, you know, benefits and insurance. I don't have all the answers to this. But I'm what I was hoping is that this debate would really kick off thanks to COVID because there is a huge potential of just having talent, being borderless. And it would really help those people that are affected by crisis's or affected by climate change if they had those opportunities to work from anywhere, and still be able to find they can maybe move to another country to be safe and work in another country to make a living whatever may look like it doesn't have to be that rigid and in our solutions that we find for them.

Katherine Ann Byam 16:44
Now, that's great. And I want to kind of hone in on this climate Jeopardy topic, because this is a sustainability podcast. So it has to come up. But what are your thoughts on who has responsibility and how we should go about addressing this ongoing challenge in the near term and long term? So really looking at the climate stressed region? So like, we know that there are many areas and regions, you know, torn by wars and different sorts of crises. But when we look at the climate Jeopardy, and we look at the numbers, it it suggests that there are roughly three 3 billion people who could become impacted by this within the next 20 years or so. How should we prepare? And whose responsibility is it?

Jenny K Wright 17:33
Well, the easy question that would be that we're all responsible, right, and then in a certain way that most of us have in some way contributed to the crisis we're seeing right now, or our ancestors did. So I think that first of all, is we all have some kind of accountability when it comes to the solution in this also, but I am one of those who believe that the governments that can afford to to solve this problem should be the ones pitching in the most. But it's it's also something in terms of not just about cutting, cutting back on the bad behaviour, so to speak, the emissions and the just the the wasteful waste, I guess, the wasteful usage of our resources, but also trying to share the wealth when it comes to knowledge, when it comes to adaptation strategies, different types of resilience methods that people from the especially these climate, mostly the climate change affected countries could really benefit from, because I have lived in some of these countries that are really affected by you know, sea level rising, and just the increase in natural disasters. And they're often not aware of how certain of their their traditional practices might be fueling this.

So while I'm not definitely not saying that they are the cause of this, because I believe that more developed countries are the ones really contributing to the climate change here. But there's also a correlation with these, you know, hundreds of years old practices, that is not conducive to sea level rising. So there's, or whatever the hazard might be, but it's one of those things where we can share knowledge when it comes to how to do things differently, just like we can learn a lot from especially from indigenous populations to have been able to be self sustainable, and without messing up with the ecosystem of how we can do things better when it comes to managing our natural resources. At the same time, there's a lot of things and new science and technology can can show for the other, more traditional societies that might benefit the way maybe how you construct houses or agricultural products, or processes that are much better for the environment that don't involve, you know, cutting down or burning down trees to make room and so on. So there's, there's different ways where we can learn from each other. And I don't think that we're doing that enough, either.

Katherine Ann Byam 19:52
Yeah. And what will you recommend to people who are located in these climate Jeopardy zones, like, what should they be doing? for their own self determination,

Jenny K Wright 20:01
it's difficult because there's often a lack of financial resources. So for me to give, give them advice on what to do is quite difficult. But one thing that I would encourage is so before I moved to Tunisia, the other country office that I worked in was in Timor Leste. So it was very interesting to see how these Pacific countries are preparing for what will happen if the sea level rise is more and some of them are already speaking with neighbouring countries to see they've even relocated entire villages. So that's one thing is to kind of look into migration pathways like looking into different types of seasonal work to eventually become more of a permanent situation, engage with neighbouring countries that might have the resources to do scientific research, for example, to see which communities might be affected first, we're already are, and what options are there for them. And if it's something that they can't fund, afford themselves, then perhaps there are others that could help another avenue could possibly be to make the visas free for academics to come and do research in the country or engineers to come in construct different types of buildings or infrastructure that are more climate resilient. So there's there is options for for them, that might not necessarily need to cost a lot that could still help in terms of in the long term, preparing for what will happen if this gets any worse.

Katherine Ann Byam 21:35
Now, these are really, really good tips. I love your ideas and solutions. And I hope they're listening because there are things that actually we can engage in to kind of build solutions faster. One of the areas that I that I studied during my MBA was around frugal innovation, right. And it was really talking about this, this social impact type of innovation that happens that actually provides really robust solutions for very low cost. And I think that this is part of what we need to be championing everywhere, like really looking at how we can use the environment around us to, to develop ideas to develop new thinking to, to break the mould, right, that's when we're not looking for profits anymore, the way that we break the mould that could be completely different. And the way that we approach solutions can be completely different. So it would be great to see us embrace more of this in all of the countries, to be honest.

Jenny K Wright 22:34
Absolutely. And I think another thing is definitely trying to share that, that enthusiasm with the next generation, it's, it's something that I probably think is the most sad is when I see young people, you know, throwing trash, you know, for example, right now I'm close to the beach, and it's a beautiful beach. But I've noticed that young people here often throw their trash right on the beach, including, you know, breaking bottles or throwing plastic into the ocean. And it's, it's very sad to me to see that because this country is so beautiful, and they they make a lot of money on tourism. And there's there's just no it seems to be like no view of the consequences of one's action and how that affects the future of the economy of the country, but also the environment around you. So that's something that I think is more on an individual level that we can hopefully teach our children to, to respect and to ensure that things are more beautiful than we found them and to never trash the resources that we've been given or waste them unnecessarily.

Katherine Ann Byam 23:44
Yeah, totally agree. Would you say that the international aid sector is doing enough to help alleviate the pressures?

Jenny K Wright 23:55
In terms of the the climate crisis?

Katherine Ann Byam 23:57
in terms of the climate crisis, or even in general, in terms of the refugee crisis? Do you feel like the international aid sector is are resourced enough and doing or spending their efforts in the right ways to help?

Jenny K Wright 24:11
I think the intentions are great. I one thing that so I worked with IOM in in Zimbabwe in 2010. And I worked there for a year and then I took basically a nine year hiatus, working with governments and then nonprofits and private sector. And what was interesting to me when I came back working for, you know, international organisations again, nine years later that I didn't really see that much had changed. We had changed from the Millennium Goals to the sustainable development goals, but in general, it didn't seem like we had achieved that much. So I think part of the part of the issue is that we are incredibly compartmentalised not only within the different agencies but also I across agencies and between, not you know, NGOs and the IGOs, like the UN system versus the civil society on the on more on a national level, or just between the different actors that can make a difference are not as coordinated as they could be. And we try don't don't get me wrong, everyone does. But there, there should be so much more coordination when it comes to everything from the design to the implementation to evaluating what has been done to ensure that there is an impact every single time. And then teaching those lessons learned and best practices so we can replicate what works and learn from the mistakes of others to not repeat that. And I feel like that's still something that's, that's lacking, and we're getting better at it. But I just wish we had got better at it 50 years ago.

Katherine Ann Byam 25:49
No, I totally understand what you mean. And I see it now with all of the effort that's happening with Ukraine that, that there's not a hell of a lot of coordination, but resources are getting there. And people are doing their best to sort of support the flow of resources and even people to help out. But definitely, it looks as if there's an opportunity for for better coordination and harmonisation in some way.

Jenny K Wright 26:17
Absolutely. I think that I mean, the desire to help is there, which is great and is admirable, but there is better ways to do a lot of things that I think that's that's why I always get the jobs that I like, are always in an inter-agency kind of function working with different partners trying to show that there is ways for international community to work with the local civil society working with governments at all various levels, and with the private sector hand in hand, to do something that works for everyone, and showing that everyone has a part to play in the solution. Because I just think that you have often these, you know, one off projects, and this is this is not just the fault of organisations, per se is usually where the funding comes from is many organisations are project based, it's it's how many of us get our funding, and it's really difficult to to do anything that will have a long term impact when we're expected to change the world and 12 months. So it's it's one of those things that the the development partners that do have enough funding to be able to, to really make an impact to also get out of that mindset that, you know, change does not happen overnight. And if we really want to have a sustainable impact, and hopefully not have to continue giving to the same country or the same group of people, then we need to think more long term with a properly planned programme that that is, you know, scientifically sound evidence based, you know, replicating what works, and then having these actual results that we are trying to achieve. And I really hope to see that soon.

Katherine Ann Byam 27:52
I was talking and interviewing someone who works in support of some sort of privately funded agencies that work in Africa. And one of the things that came up is that he was comparing sort of the entire aid budget overall, and looking at how much corporations spend on training, and realise that actually, the investment corporations make on training, which impacts a very small amount of people is much more than the international aid budget overall. And I thought that was a really interesting statistic. Do you think that corporations need to do more? Or do you think that they're doing enough?

Jenny K Wright 28:34
I think what they need to do is understand that they actually have something to benefit from helping not just from like a corporate social responsibility perspective. But there's there's also this huge potential of if you help people with economic opportunities, where they can potentially get jobs, or they had the ability to save money on something, whatever maybe is that could actually be good for their business. So there could be a connection between increased revenue for many companies just by actually helping the local community where they serve anyway. So there's there's also that but there's also the idea of testing new innovations to see if it works and trying to to be part of the change. And and that's incredibly great marketing, even if it's not necessarily part of the CSR approach. But I think that's something that I always thought that's why because I worked for many years in private sector, I tried to show them that they have so much to give to the aid sector in terms of how you do something with that kind of business mindset, which a lot of people seem to think is some kind of dirty word when it comes to when you work in humanitarian assistance are an in development work, but it's not. It really should be something that makes financial sense on how you do something. It should be kind of going back to your own idea of you know, being frugal and You need to do something that generates results. So there needs to be a return on investment. Even if we're talking about people's lives or their their rights, there should still be some kind of accountability for how you spend your money. And that there is proper planning when it comes to what kind of results you're expecting. And I do think the private sector does this well in many aspects, and we can learn from them. And likewise, companies can learn from humanitarian organisations or development agencies on how they can do things that help the community that would actually make the community able to be more of a consumer of their products or services also, so could be good for their own income by helping others.

Katherine Ann Byam 30:45
Yeah, no, I love this. I want to ask you one final question. And that is about working in a sector. So I know that you've been doing this for some time. Now, I'm not sure exactly how long so you can feel free to include that in your answer. But how does one really go about getting involved in this space? And what's what's your recommendation? And from from both sides, so I know that there's directly humanitarian type operations, but in terms of policy setting, and all of these things help, how can we get involved?

Jenny K Wright 31:21
I think the the main way to answer that is it depends like what you're interested in, because often in this sector, it might not pay very well. So it helps if you have a huge dose of of energy and enthusiasm for whatever the subject may be that you want to get involved in. So for me personally, because I come from a family that that really loves, charities and and, and we were always raised that if you can help you should help. So for me, there was really no other option. I always I've been volunteering since 2001, to answer your questions over 20 years working with, mainly with migrants, but also with animals, I've worked with various environmental organisations, I, I just love it both working and volunteering. So in terms of getting started, I, I see there's always opportunity of volunteering, not everyone can afford that. But there are plenty of opportunities to do that, for example, online, even if it's just an hour a week to see, you know, get your feet wet and see if it's something that interests you. There are plenty of both unpaid and paid internships where you can get a chance to see what it would be like to do a career in those areas. In terms of getting started with that, I would definitely recommend applying anywhere everywhere, because internships are very rarely published, especially with smaller organisations and at country level. So that's something that many people don't think about. And they only apply to the ones that are posted. But there are so many more out there if you're just willing to to send some applications out and see who might be able to hire. Those are both great opportunities to get the foot in the door and to show what you're to see if it's something that's interesting, but also to show what you can do. Oh, sorry, to ask you a question about policy. I think that's something where creating a platform is a great way to do that to show that you can influence people be on social media, or be it in person or whatever it may be. So in terms of trying to get into more of the advocacy, sphere, or policy and so on. Showing that you are able to change the hearts and minds of people is a great way to get people interested in you working for them.

Katherine Ann Byam 33:38
How can people get involved with what you're doing and support your work?

Jenny K Wright 33:42
Well, for example, in art, we're about to launch a new initiative in the country offices. I'm working right now with more of Ambassador programme. It's it's a volunteer type programme, but the idea is to kind of vet some some young influencers, who are interested in migration and the positive aspects of that could have in terms of contributing to the economic development of countries, in this case, Tunisia. And we already have some people that we have selected for the group, but there's going to be I'm more than happy to get more applications for that if anyone wants to help promote different positive initiatives that are being done to show that migrants are contributing positively to their their host communities. There's actually another global campaign called it takes a community. It's a global campaign by IOM called the it takes a community and it also shows the positive contributions of migrants into the their host communities and how we can all work together to create a better community and future for everyone. And I think that's a really positive campaign. That's a good way to for others to contribute and pitch in and it doesn't take a lot of time. It's just more kind of highlighting these these nice stories that often unfortunately, don't make it to the news. But just some success stories or some nice positive examples of how people can work together and no matter what the their backgrounds might be. So that's one way to get involved in that area.

Katherine Ann Byam 35:16
Tell everyone about migrants guide.

Jenny K Wright 35:19
So a migrants Guide is a new blog that we are about to launch. And the idea is to create kind of a repository of helpful articles and resources and stories from migrants around the world for other migrants either aspiring already current migrants to be better prepared before they move to a new country. I don't know about you, but I always look for blog articles, or other real life stories from people who have already moved to the country I'm heading to, to know what to expect to know what to pack to know what I need to think about before I go there like it, it all really helps. And the idea is to create this blog by everyone helping everyone who is interested in moving to another country with these helpful tips. So if anyone is has lived or is living in another country, and we'd be willing to either write an article or write a short story about their experience, and what kind of lessons they learned, or what kind of tips they would like to give to somebody else, that would be extremely useful and very much welcomed them.

Katherine Ann Byam 36:27
Thank you so much, Jenny. And I'm definitely going to put all these links into the show notes so that people can get engaged with all of this. So please remember to check out the show notes and follow Jenny's links. Jenny is also a huge influencer on LinkedIn, and she has over 40,000 followers. So if you wanted to connect with her account on LinkedIn, I'm sure you're going to get signposted to all these great resources that she posts about regularly. So, Jenny, thank you so much for joining us. And thank you so much. Let's let's all collaborate and make this migration challenge really become an opportunity for for everyone and for the world.

Jenny K Wright 37:03
Yes, that'd be amazing. Thank you very much again.

Katherine Ann Byam 37:08
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070 Growing a Successful ESG Consulting Practice

070 Growing a Successful ESG Consulting Practice

About this Episode

Heather Burns is an independent ESG and sustainability consultant who for the past 15 years has helped global companies and NGOs find ways to improve and report on their social, environmental, and corporate governance performance. She has also helped to develop global ESG certifications and standards, and is the founder of a nonprofit business association focused on scaling business solutions to climate change. Her work in sustainable development (an initiative called Haiti Onward) was recognized as a semi-finalist in the 2011 Buckminster Fuller Challenge.  

 Her interest in sustainability was sparked in 1998 while traveling and working as a Divemaster on a small island in Thailand, where the waters she dived every day were in rapid decline due to two local economies (tourism and fishing) battling over the same fragile ecosystem. Working with local residents, dive shop owners, and local fishermen, she and other divers formed an island conservation organization still in operation today.

 Her latest adventure involves teaching consultants of all types how to start and grow a successful ESG Consulting practice.

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Episode Transcript

Heather, welcome to Where Ideas Launch!

Heather Burns  1:29  

Thank you, Katherine. I'm so happy to be here. I love your podcast.

Katherine Ann Byam  1:33  

Thank you so much for joining us and for shedding some light on this whole idea of ESG. And I think that's going to be my first question to you, actually. I talk about it at times, but I think that not everyone understands what ESG is. Why don't you share with us what exactly this means and where came from?

Heather Burns  1:51  

Yeah, so I think I love a good definition. And it's really important, particularly in sustainability, because there are so many of them flying around. So ESG is the practice of measuring, monitoring and reporting on environmental, social and governance performance. So the environment can include operational impacts, like wastewater energy, or those related to climate change, such as carbon emissions. And then social impacts can include how a company treats its employees, how it engages with the communities in which it operates and whether or not it prioritises diversity, equity and inclusion. And then governance addresses decision making and transparency and the distribution of rights and responsibilities. But it's important to keep in mind that the goal of ESG is actually sustainability, which is defined as our ability to meet the demands of the present without jeopardising the ability of future generations to meet their needs.

Katherine Ann Byam  2:52  

How do you think we're doing?

Heather Burns  2:55  

Well, we could always be doing better. You know, I definitely think we could be doing better. But I think that and as I'll get into a little bit later, it really has reached the tipping point that many of us have been hoping for for the last decade, and has hit the mainstream. So I think we're on a good trajectory.

Katherine Ann Byam  3:15  

That's a good answer. I want to get back a bit and talk about how you came to this in the first place. Because when I meet consultants now in the space; Environmental Consultants who've been around, or that's what it was called in the old days, environmental consultancy. How did you come to this? And where did you come from to bring those skills to this space?

Heather Burns  3:35  

Have you ever watched a movie that changed your life? Yeah, right? And so that's happened to me twice. And the first time and both are related. The first time was back in the late 90s. And I was feeling a little bit lost, you know, all my friends are settling down, getting married, doing that whole, you know, kid thing. And I was like, still trying to figure out what I'm supposed to be doing. And I remember watching Seven Years in Tibet, and I was just so enthralled by the idea of getting out of the United States, and seeing the world. So I sold or gave away all my stuff. I bought a one way ticket and I spent the next three years living and working in Asia. And while I was there, I lived on this tiny island in Thailand called Koh Tao and I became a scuba dive master and I was diving the same waters every day for hundreds of dives. And I really witnessed human impacts causing the coral reef to die. And when I stopped to think about it, I realised that it was because commercial fishing and tourism, you know, two main economies of this community were at odds over the same ecosystem, and that really sort of planted a seed. So fast forward. 

A handful of years later, I'm back in the United States, and I'm doing that whole thing of getting married and having kids and I sit down to watch Al Gore's An Inconvenient Truth which is a doctor's memory about climate change, as you probably know. And what I learned watching that movie really became the sort of before and after period in my life, right? It was like before I knew about climate change, and after I learned about climate change, and let me tell you, it's not an easy movie to watch. And I almost turned it off. But there's this part, you know, where he looks at the audience, you know, and he's looking you dead in the eye. And he's like, before you jump from denial to despair, like, stop in the middle and do something. And I was like, Okay, I'm going to figure this out. 

So at first, I thought about going to work for an NGO, like Greenpeace for Sierra Club, because they were doing really cool things. But that seed that has been planted back in Thailand, around economies, you know, really kind of needle me and it told me that working with business was one of the things that not a lot of people were doing at the time. And perhaps it was actually one thing that can have a great impact. You know, the problem was that the industry at that point was incredibly nascent. And everyone was like, still trying to figure out what sustainability and ESG actually even were. 

So I started with what I knew how to do, which was research and right. And so shortly after watching the movie, I created this blog called CT Green Scene, which was basically like a round up of all things green and environmental that were happening in my state, and I focused as much as I could on business and entrepreneurs. And, you know, I learned as much as I could from watching companies like Seventh generation and Patagonia and seeing what they were doing. And after a few months, I started hosting these networking events, which took off because we were, we ended up in the New York Times, somehow, I don't know. I don't know who called them, it was not me. But before I knew it, like companies were asking me to consult them back then it was called going green. So, you know, getting my first paying client, of course, is a bit more of a story. Because it's always easy to do free work as a consultant. But eventually, I think, yeah, it was a colleague who told me about an association that her company or company was a member in, and they ended up hiring me to write a sustainability report. Well, of course, I had absolutely no idea what I was doing. And it was definitely like flying a plane by Well, you know, trying to build it. But they renewed for a second term of the contract. So I couldn't have done such a bad job. And that was kind of how I got started.

Katherine Ann Byam  7:31  

That's an incredible story. And I think that a lot of us think like this. So we have this, this moment where things become clearer, like my clarity moment was actually reading a book called Jugaad Innovation to get innovation stories of India and how they innovate solutions from cheap from from the natural environment to make things work, like building incubators for kids, or building fridges so that they can keep their food fresher for longer from clean water and stuff like this. And there's always a moment when there's cognition, you know, something sparks, something opens up. And then the next question is, how do you do something? It's, it's kind of like, you know, you listen to the knees and something happens, and you're like, how do I get involved? How do I participate? How do I make an impact? And I think what's great about your story is that you didn't come from a traditional environmental background, if you want to talk a little bit about the kind of skills you brought to the table, and you started.

Heather Burns  8:29  

So at the time, I was working in the publishing industry, I was working as an editor and a freelance writer. So my skills were basically you know, revolved around research and interviewing questions, asking really good questions, thinking deeply about a topic and kind of being able to peel away the layers to get to what's really going on behind that I think was sort of, and then being able to communicate in a compelling, you know, way that made people want to get involved. I think those were sort of the core skills that I started with. And I'd add to that of deep interest and passion for learning, and really just wanting to, you know, expand my skill set.

Katherine Ann Byam  9:17  

That's really interesting. And I want to take us a little bit now to what are some of the shifts that you've seen happen in your tenure in this space? So you've kind of been doing this work now for more than 10 years? What sort of shifts have happened? And how do you sort of compare this to what's happening right now? And what's really made the big difference in your view?

Heather Burns  9:42  

Yeah, so I think there have been two significant shifts that have shaped the industry and created what is now this unprecedented demand for ESG and sustainability consulting services. And the first was the shift from thinking about everything In terms of green, right, which really means all things environmental, to the idea that people, planet and profit, which was referred to as the triple bottom line, are actually connected. And that really led to this idea that sustainability is the goal, and that you have to have those three pieces in order to achieve true sustainability and business. So that was the shift that was really the precursor to ESG. And to companies understanding, you know, this idea that triple bottom line meant that they could actually, you know, prosper as a company. So around that same time, seventh generation, which makes non toxic consumer products was acquired by Unilever for $700 million.

Heather Burns  10:53  

And that was like that made people kind of pause like, whoa, Unilever's interested in a company like that, because until that point, those types of companies have really been in this very specialty type of market, right. And of course today, Unilever's sustainable living brands has a 50% faster growth than the rest of their portfolio. So certainly proven now. 

But the second trend is more recent. And this is that critical move from, you know, the sidelines to mainstream. And people ask me all the time, you know, how do you know that this is shifted to the mainstream when so many companies are still oblivious, or in denial or whatever it is? And you know, how do we know that things won't just go back to business as usual, when there's a next change in government leadership or something. And I tell them that, you know, it's because it's at this point, it's coming from all directions, and every stakeholder group, right? So it really started with this consumer demand, there was the emergence of what was called a low hos sector, which was lifestyles of health and sustainability. And these were folks that were, you know, vocal about the fact that they were willing to pay more for environmentally or sustainable products environmentally friendly. And today course that Mark is on track to hit 150 billion in the US alone, and 90% of millennials are willing to 90% of millennials are willing to pay more for products that are environmentally friendly, or sustainable. So those people actually happen to work, right, they have jobs, so their employees.

 So then you have this shift into the employee stakeholder group, where you've got 80% of millennials wanting to work for a company that's strong on ESG. So companies obviously want top talent. And their top talent is telling them this is what we're looking for. So they're getting it now from employees, and then you layer on the supply chain. And you've got all these disruptions that are, you know, started off kind of in the fashion industry and saw a lot of terrible fires in Bangladesh, and people died. And, you know, this led to really like, you know, this outcry around the supply chain, right. And now you've got COVID and a pandemic, which just elevated everything and really put a microscope on and the fact that our supply chains are completely broken. 

So all of this uncertainty is really seen as risk, particularly when you're looking at it from the perspective of investors. So, you know, last but certainly not least, are a stakeholder group of investors. Right? And so, last year, in his annual letter to CEOs, Larry Fink, who's the CEO of Blackrock, which is an investment firm with over $9 trillion of assets under their management, proclaimed CEOs, right, that climate risk is investment risk, and that companies need to get serious about it. Well, everyone thought, well, that's really interesting, right? Well, and then the pandemic hit, and they thought, ah, that is just, you know, that will kind of fizzle. Well, instead, it didn't fizzle. In fact, it took hold. And then in his next year, which was this year, a letter to CEOs, not only did he reiterate that, but he basically said that companies that are not Net Zero, by 2050, are going to be, you know, ops become obsolete. So this is really now sending complete shockwaves through the global markets. And not to mention, it's led to companies like Amazon and Unilever and Microsoft are now making these netzero claims. And they can't get there without their suppliers because 80% of a company's greenhouse gas emissions is actually embedded in their supply chain. So now you've finally got this pressure that's being put on more of the midsize companies and so that's why I say it's here to stay

Katherine Ann Byam  15:00  

Yeah, no, I totally hear you with that. And I want to slightly shift and challenge you a little bit. And it is, is ESG the same as CSR? And therefore, is it just another form of greenwashing. Now, I think I understand a bit more about it than that. But for my listeners, they want you to debunk this idea that the ESG sort of framework is not just another effort of companies to cleanse their past?

Heather Burns  15:31  

It's a fantastic question. And, you know, I'd say that the answer is quite complicated, really. And there are certainly experts out there who I respect, and who are actually very vocal right now and criticising ESG. And they're not wrong. But my pushback really is always that we need to do what we can when we can. And, you know, I will directly address that in just a minute. But I think, you know, everything about this industry is evolving. And we really need to evolve very, very quickly. And we need to keep that in mind. Companies are not designed to be able to evolve quickly. They're designed to get really good at their core deliverables and what they do and what they provide, right. And so, change is difficult, even on the individual level, you try to take that to the whole corporate culture level, and you're talking about it, it's going to take some time. 

So that's certainly not an excuse, by any stretch of the imagination for companies to take advantage of that. And I think what I really do like about ESG, is that it is, you know, what is measured gets managed, and along with ESG, is this component of reporting, and becoming very transparent, and publicly open about whatever your environmental, social and governance performance is. And then setting goals that you're comfortable with. And this is usually where the most criticism comes in is, you know, companies are setting goals that they're comfortable with. They're not necessarily setting goals that place planetary benefit at the core of that goal, or even what's called, you know, planetary context. So for example, you know, if a company makes a commitment to reduce its water usage by 10%, over the course of whatever, that could sound like a great or 20, even 20, or 50%, whatever that number is, because it sounds like an amazing number. 

But then if you really look at that particular company, you have to look at what watershed is it actually in? And what does that watershed require? Not the company what, but what does that actual watershed require to become more sustainable? So there's certainly some weak spots. And then as far as greenwashing goes, I mean, it's always a risk, and it and it will continue to be a risk. But I think that this idea that transparency, and supporting and backing up with data is becoming much, much more than expected, right, it's expected from investors. I mean, you can't really pull the wool over an investor size. I mean, if you do, there's serious consequences to that, you know, you're gonna be held to a much higher level of accountability around investors than you are consumers, unfortunately. But that's kind of just the truth. So I think that this idea that this newest kind of wave of investor involvement is, is critical to stem the spread of greenwashing.

Katherine Ann Byam  18:51  

Yeah, I, I really get this. And I think there's a lot of pushback also on how companies are solving the problems. So things like, you know, should we be doing offsets? Or should we be really innovating from within? Should we really be getting all the things out? And I think you've kind of answered that already, in terms of how difficult it is to make change happen. And we actually need the companies that are dedicated to the offsetting to kind of get something for their effort, right. So companies that are trying to build solutions that are specific to that, you know, you kind of want to support those even if they are interim solutions, but we need every solution. Right. But I don't know if you have a different thought than that.

Heather Burns  19:32  

No, I agree with that. 100%. We need our solution. And new solutions will also come online, right? I mean, we're not thank goodness, we're not operating in a bubble. And now the companies see a very strong business case for incorporating these things. I think that's going to lead to more R & D than it already is. It's leading to more R & D, more investments and more innovation, innovative solutions for the marketplace. So we'll continue to see more of those as we go along.

Katherine Ann Byam  20:07  

That's interesting. I want to tap into that, because what do you anticipate as the sort of future of the next five years of this ESG framework, etc. Because, for me, what I'd probably like to see is that it really becomes more integrated and embedded in everything in all the reporting that we do in everything that comes out of a company. But what are your thoughts on where you see this going in the next five years? Well, it's

Heather Burns  20:32  

definitely going to become more integrated. And I think that certainly has pros and cons to it. And the way that we get there is a little bit concerning because there's not a lot of standardisation, particularly when you're talking about, you know, consulting, and providing advice in this space. And in some ways, that's a good thing. Because I truly believe that there's a place for every single consultant who wants to get involved in this can have a positive impact doing so. But at the same time, there's very little, you know, academic programmes that are sort of all over the map, in terms of what they cover. Most of them are highly theoretical and methodology based or not practice based. So it's really a nascent industry sector that needs more. Yeah, more, you know, consistency across the board. But sort of from an industry wide perspective, I think one of the things that I see that's kind of exciting, actually, on the horizon is this idea of carbon pricing. And, you know, there are lots of different models out there and each other has pros and cons for sure, as far as climate change goes, but putting a price on carbon will really help us to realise the true cost of our emissions. And so for too long, you know, companies have externalised environmental costs, and basically borrowed from our future and future generations, to keep prices as low as possible for Chris consumers, you know, and we, as consumers have benefitted from that, so there's sort of no innocent bystanders here. But what's interesting is that many companies actually see carbon pricing as a necessary shift that they need to make to get to a carbon neutral economy. And many of them are already using an internal price on carbon to make really important business decisions. So yeah, I think, I think that's really exciting in terms of like, getting everyone on the same page, and starting to really understand the cost of the things that we use,

Katherine Ann Byam  23:03  

So true. And I also think that, you know, it's like your analogy about borrowing from the future, like, one of my guests once said, and I always remember it, that we have that we have this inheritance, right? It's like your great grandfather's left your big, big inheritance, and we decided to do it on the first party, right? Instead of sort of leaving it for What's tomorrow. And, and essentially, that's, that's where we're at in it's like, you know, what we see going on with Russia and Ukraine and all the situations that we have going on in the world at the moment, a lot of it is a land grab for resources, right? That's a land grab for things that are scarce. And I can't see that changing until we change until we start thinking about things differently. So it seems, and I don't want to see anything as inevitable because that's scary language. But if we don't, if we don't embrace this, we will have other consequences that we will need to embrace. So we need to, I really think we should choose the lesser of the evils. I don't know if it's,

Heather Burns  24:10  

yeah, I mean, Change is inevitable, and adaptation is necessary at this point, you know, and, and the science is evolving, right. So as we learn more about the impacts and the CO impacts, and the long tail impacts, you know, I mean, the things that we're missing today are not what we're experiencing today, right? It's what our kids will experience. So it's, this is a long game. And I think that's another sort of mindset shift that's necessary if we're so instant gratification, you know, programmed and we've really have to start to think more in seven generations, right? Like think about those seven generations. Yeah, I think that's an important mindset shift to have for sure.

Katherine Ann Byam  25:05  

I want to ask a few questions now for the people who are listening to this who may be interested in dipping into consulting in this space. And I know that many of my younger listeners, people in that sort of millennials, slash Gen Gen Z categories, are really thinking about what they can do to make an impact, and what advice would you give them?

Heather Burns  25:28  

Well, it's a super exciting time. And I said it before, but I'm gonna say it again, I honestly believe that there's a place for everyone. And it really is a blue ocean opportunity for consultants who want to help or people who want to help companies prepare for what's ahead and become a part of the solution. So I certainly think that that's, you know, the time is now if you've been thinking about it, like, dive in. Because when you think about it, and everything we've talked about today, right, there's just enormous, the floodgates have opened. And I actually have friends who own a company that helps pair companies looking for consultants and ESG consultants, and there's just such overwhelming demand, even the consultants, these firms that are out there that are doing this kind of work, they don't have enough people. So there's just this unprecedented demand. 

And I think that's first, the second thing is that there really is this myth, and it's starting to weaken, but it's still really very much there. And that is that, you know, you have to be science oriented or tech, not, you know, very technical in your expertise. But that's really not true. I mean, like you said earlier, I did not come from, you know, in a traditional environmental background, many of us don't. And in fact, companies certainly are utilising, you know, subject matter experts and technical experts for their, you know, their footprinting, or their life cycle analysis. But they also really need more of the overarching consultants who can help them navigate all of this change that's required to embed a strategy, you know, create a strategy and embed it, and then communicate it. And so you know, as for more specific skills, and experience, I think there's probably like three things to keep in mind. 

The first is that surveys have shown that the most sought after criteria that companies are looking for when they're hiring people, is that they have industry specific experience. So if you can find a way to start, within an industry that you already have experience in, you're definitely going to have a leg up. 

The second is that strong communication skills are very important, right. So the ability to make a compelling case for change. Whether that's through written internal kind of communications, or external branding, kind of communications, or verbal presentations, its communications is definitely something that everyone involved in ESG. And sustainability really needs to be good at. Because you're trying to get a lot of different people onto the same page and rowing in the same direction. So I'd also say, really close to that is that there's relationship building. And, you know, companies are really often very nervous about like, you know, pulling back the curtain, and, you know, they fear judgement. And let's face it, no company is doing everything. 100%, right. And lots of them have been contributors to the problem. But it's a learning curve. And so the ability to create trust and relationships and rapport with companies, I think is really important. 

And then third is kind of like a bonus, I'd call it and it's maybe a bit more of like a superpower. But it can certainly be learned. And that is whole system's thinking. So I really like the ability to draw connections to sustainability from all sorts of angles. And this helps you not only come up with innovative solutions for your clients, but it also makes it easier to see, kind of down the road, what's coming next in the industry. And that is something that companies will definitely like to pay a premium for.

Katherine Ann Byam  29:49  

That's really great and a slightly different tack on this question. And it's something that I've been kind of receiving and I want to validate if it's actually true, but I think this is probably The first corporate role maybe other than HR, that could be female? What are your thoughts on that?

Heather Burns  30:06  

Well, I think certainly there is a shift. However, you know, if you're looking at business and industry, I mean, it's predominantly male. Right? So I mean, we have that. But I think as far as the potential, it's, it's certainly there. And I would, I would definitely say that it's gotten better or a little bit easier to be female led, because, you know, in the early days, the denial was just so like, in your face, and I mean, I've had men really kind of get in my face about it, you know, back in the 2000 10s, kind of, you know, looking at me and like, Yeah, this is never going to be a thing. Like, we, you know, what are you even doing? This is just not even gonna be a thing. And it is a thing, to those of you who said that, to me, it is a thing. So, yeah, I do, I do think and I think women are also very well positioned in terms of like, they're typically good communicators. Right. So I think there's some, definitely some alignment there

Katherine Ann Byam  31:19  

any closing remarks that you want to share with my listeners, and maybe how they can connect with your work?

Heather Burns  31:26  

Well, I'd say there's two ways. First, is through a digital course that I developed called ESG, consulting foundations, and that teaches how to build a successful ESG and sustainability consulting practice. What makes it different is really, you know, we go well beyond theory into the practice of being an ESG, and sustainability consultant. And, you know, how do you find your first clients? How do you make a strong business case? And how do you build credibility quickly, things like that. And second, I don't even know if you know this yet, but you have inspired me to start a podcast. So it's called consulting 9.0. And we look at what it's like to build a successful consulting practice on a warming planet. Season One is going to be interviews with seven pioneers of sustainability business. I think six of those seven are actually meant. So there's some equity work necessary there. But the 9.0 really is a play off of the nine planetary boundaries that are required for humans to be supported on the planet. I love

Katherine Ann Byam  32:41  

This is because I love that word. You recommended it to me actually, you recommended that I read donut economics and, and get into that space and and I really like how she has sort of centred this idea that we need to live in balance with these nine boundaries. But we also need to make sure no one falls through the hole. And when we say no one, it's like, it's biodiversity, right? Life itself doesn't fall through that hole. So I really love that you've embraced that in your work. And I'm really looking forward to when you bring that podcast out. Thank you. So Heather, it's been really a pleasure to have you ever learn so much in the session, and I'm sure many listeners have to thank you so much for joining the show.

069 Waste to Wealth

069 Waste to Wealth


About this Episode

Roz Edwards has been a business owner now for 30 years, initially in African Art and now with a collection of thousands of mannequins rescued from landfill. 

Roz started Mannakin from nothing, not even the mannequins, but she was determined to use her business acumen and creativity to create a meaningful sustainable business. Whilst researching mannequins she found an opportunity to create a business out of hiring them, to provide for her children while freeing herself from the restrictions of poverty. 

Today, Mannakin Hall in Lincolnshire houses a vast collection of mannequins to hire, the majority of which has been diverted from landfill. The unusual scenery within the grounds has created a popular film location, and a major source of Roz’s wealth and business growth. Roz has also started Club Mannakin to help independent, creative business owners grow and scale.

We talked about:

Her growing youtube following of people inspired by her story (over 1mn views)

What it's like starting an idea (circular economy) way before it's time had come.

The challenges and successes in growing and scaling the business

Tips for sustainable business owners just getting started

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Episode Transcript

Katherine Ann Byam 0:03
Roz, welcome to where Ideas Launch!

Roz Edwards 1:37
Hey, Katherine, thanks so much for having me on here. So exciting.

Katherine Ann Byam 1:40
Really great to have you. And great that your video on YouTube is absolutely blowing up, right? How many views are you up to today?

Roz Edwards 1:47
And I've not checked because I thought I'd just give it a bit of a break. Because I have been constantly checking. It's going up by about 3000 views a day, which is just a It's just incredible. So I think the last time I checked it was on 1,011,000 and something so oh

Katherine Ann Byam 2:06
my goodness, it's incredible. So what we're talking about listeners is that Roz had a film crew come up to her mannequin empire. And it's just been off the charts how people have been responding to what she's been doing. So So Roz, I'd like you to share with my listeners, the origin story of mannequin and how you got started.

Roz Edwards  2:27
And there's a deliberate misspelling of the word mannequin. And there's a little story behind that. And that is, I was going to be a retail consultant. I had no intention ever of working with mannequins, it never even entered my mind. But I was putting content on my website all about retail strategy. And I thought, well, mannequins are a big part of retail, but I've never worked with them. So let's start researching.

And I basically put a page on my website that said, I've got mannequins to hire, which I didn't have my telephone number, and then just some pictures of some mannequins that I knew well, I could buy some, you know, if it was just like, let's let's just put this out there on the internet and see what happens. within 24 hours, my phone started ringing with people wanting mannequins, like in London next week. And of course, I didn't have any, so I had to sort of lie and just say, Oh, I'm terribly sorry. They're all out on hire at the moment. So then, it basically carried on and you know, for the last was for nearly 14 years now.

The phones never stopped ringing. But in those early days, I was operating off of Roz Edwards, just my own website. But I thought, No, this is it needs its own name. So being a little bit of an expert with websites, and SEO and everything, my initial thing was, well, I should try to get mannequins, the correct spelling, you know .com.co.uk and all the rest of it. So of course, that domain name had gone. So I went for misspellings. And then when I saw that, I could do Mannakins spelt quite phonetically. And then I broke that word down into two, which was Manna Food from heaven. And kin - kindred spirit. And I just thought that this is perfect name is absolutely a perfect name for it. Because I was literally I had nothing. I was living in a council house on benefits. No job. I'd returned from Milan after living in Malawi for 10 years. And really low self esteem. But I had all this business experience. It's like, nope, we're going to, we're going to rebuild, we're going to do something. And it probably took me about two years before I believed that I could actually I can make money out of dummies. And but it's yeah, it's it's a wonderful gift from heaven. Basically,

Katherine Ann Byam 5:02
Congratulations on all your success, it's immense how you've managed to turn this into a mannequin empire, tell us a bit about the business model or models that your mannequin operation uses, and how your success has been over the years.

Roz Edwards  5:16
So I mean, obviously, in the early days, it was taking very, very little money. And the biggest turnover we've ever had in the year is just shy of half a million pounds, which is phenomenal, really, I mean, even I couldn't quite believe that. And but basically, the way that mannequin works is, it has a huge collection of mannequins, so they're all tidied up, you know, made to look beautiful. And then they're advertised on my website for hire.

And we do sell some but the, I'd say maybe 70% of the business is hiring. So they all look lovely, and they go out in boxes get delivered lead a much more exciting life than I do. And then when they come back in, of course, they've got fingerprints all over the maybe some of the joints that they've got a joint for example, that fits the the arm and the hand together, you know, maybe that's been busted, you know, whilst they're using it, they haven't quite taken good care of it. So then they come back in, and I've got what we call the, the fixing room, for want of a better name.

But in the early days, my children nicknamed it Dolby city, because I actually used to do this in my kitchen from home, fix the mannequins and get them all ready to go back out again. So in actual fact, on the doors to the fixing room, it doesn't say Dolby city because you know, my kids name that after the TV programme.

So they all get prepared. So that can involve Yep, putting bits back together again, sanding them down, cleaning them. And then I've got a spray Bay. So they go into the spray Bay, they're wheeled on, like clothing, Rails, those are, they're all hanging upside down.

And they go in front of the spray, they they have a new coat of paint, if they don't need all of it, they might just need a waft over some of the more than others. And then they get packed. And they go back into their boxes again, and they're ready to ready to go and have fun.

Katherine Ann Byam 7:17
What challenges have you faced or because it sounds like you haven't had challenges, what would you say has been responsible for your success.

Roz Edwards  7:25
So a really, really big challenge that I met. And I didn't find a huge amount of help out there for this either, was, you find that you get to a certain stage with a business. And you have got a certain amount of turnover, as well, and a certain amount of burnout. So you find yourself doing everything because you're, you know, you're a sole trader, but it was a limited company, but a sole person working within that business.

And so there was a point where I'm driving vans into London to deliver like big quantities of mannequins. But I've got my headset on with connected to my phone, because I'm also the receptionist. So then I would get to a lay by and if I couldn't answer the phone in time, I would obviously phone them back my little notepad and pen in the van, and writing all of that down, and then having to come back.

And obviously I've got to, you know, replenish the stock after it's been used. And it was quite exhausting. So my biggest challenge really was, I can't do any more myself, this can't go any bigger. But it can go bigger because the demand is there. So then it was a case of right and compartmentalising as the right word to use everything. So okay, let's have someone on the reception and doing know answering the phone, doing the sales doing all of the admin, right, that's one person's job.

Now let's get someone fixing the mannequins. Now let's get someone spraying the mannequins. And so at one point I had about 10 staff. But that is another thing, again, is bringing all of these people in because all of a sudden, you've changed from being this kind of really exciting times of running your own business and making money, too.

I've got to be like the staff police now. You know. So anyway, what I did is I went and took a course in management and that helped enormously. But I found my role had changed, you know, because I'm really I'm now properly the director, and I'm directing everything. So that that was a big challenge, but a huge amount of success and you know, massive amount of wealth came out of that just at the right time. So it all pays off. It all pays off. Nothing's easy, otherwise everyone would be doing it.

Katherine Ann Byam 9:54
Absolutely. No. And I totally get that it's a big jump once you start bringing people on because as you say it's a completely different job. It's a completely different role. And not all of us want to do that role.

Roz Edwards 10:06
Yeah. And we don't have the experience, we don't have those skills. I mean, there were times where I really felt that How the hell am I going to do this? You know, because I don't know how to manage somebody. So I learned. That's what you do. So you've just quickly get on and you learn,

Katherine Ann Byam 10:22
Really outstanding. And I want to tap into the circular economy principle that you're running your business on, I can imagine that when you started, there wasn't a lot of talk about the circular economy, how did you influence clients choices in this way.

Roz Edwards  10:36
So it that is actually quite an ongoing battle, because it can come down to price. But it can also come down to almost like people's greed with things, they want to possess things. So they don't necessarily see until you know, I've spoken to them, how hiring can benefit them. And of course, as I've just explained that process, you know, the mannequin comes in, it goes here, here, here, and it goes out again. So they're constantly spinning round and round and round that there isn't more of a circular business model there, I think to show. But the whole mannequin industry is linear.

Let's go and get them all made in China quite often, somewhere in the Far East, there are other places that make them but that's, you know, the main manufacturing point, let's ship them all that way, right across the world. And then we'll have them in the shops. And then usually, maybe I think the cycle is gone longer now, but it used to sort of be every four years, right? Okay, we'll get rid of those mannequins now.

And then we'll go and get some more. So you've just got them, they're all doing this journey like this all the time. And what hiring does, is what we've already got the mannequins here, let's cut out all of that transport. We don't need it, because they are here. And getting that message across is easier with the smaller independent businesses. But when it comes to the big guys, they can't quite see it.

Some can some of you know someone now working with doing it. But generally, it's, you know, like I said, they they've been transported, they'll be used for however many years, and then crushed and go to landfill. So my job very much is persuading my clients that look, they're here. They're, they're beautiful. And in actual fact, because we're renovating them all the time, every time they you know, they've been out and they come back in, they're better than these ones that you can buy, you know, from from the Far East.

And then let me see what I can do about all of this waste and this rubbish. So I got a phone call from someone who said, Oh, I see what you're doing. We read this as quite a few years ago now. But I see what you're doing. We've got about 100 mannequins that are going to go in the bin. But the owner doesn't really want that to happen. They want them to be reused. Would you take them? So I said, Well, yeah, of course, how many again, he said, 100. And then over the space of the next four months, and this is what I was buying mannequin Hall as well at the time.

So thank goodness, because 25,000 of them turned up. There was one Arctic Chuck after another. And I remember phoning him and just saying, Are you having a laugh? And he said, Well, do you not want them because they are going to be crushed if you don't want them? And I said, Well, okay, send them. Because there's an issue here. There's a problem. And I want to fix it.

Katherine Ann Byam 13:36
It's so amazing. I just love this story. And I want to talk a little bit about mannequin mountain and and that location in Lincolnshire, can you tell my listeners what they can experience when they visit?

Roz Edwards  13:48
And we've had a couple of horror films made there. So you can imagine, really, it's it's most horror films, they start with maybe you know, two girls are in a car, and the car breaks down and it's raining, and it's dark. And they live too long. They find this place, I think, Oh, well go in there and use the phone because you know, it's out in the middle of nowhere, and there's no one there, their phones aren't working and all the rest of it. And then they obviously they wander in and discover that they've made the wrong you know, they've taken the wrong term, basically, it's very much that kind of vibe to it. So there's some beautiful big gates that you drive through.

And then you're just hit by which one of my friends said it's a visual assault, basically, that's what it is. You don't notice the mountain when you come in because like you come in and it's just to the left of you. So quite often people come in and then when they're driving out, they go, Oh my goodness. All of those may say Yeah, and so there are the buildings themselves that used to be a secret airbase for the Americans during the Second World War.

So that's all quiet exciting story as well, and but there are literally like, you know, mannequins all over some sorted some waiting to be sorted. And then yeah, there's all sorts of creepy looking buildings. fantastic views out the back when you get round to the back. Absolutely gorgeous views across the Lincolnshire ridge. And so it's a really beautiful location. And then yeah, and then you would wander around or drive around because you can drive all the way around. And then there's just the biggest pile of mannequins that you've that anybody has ever seen. I mean, I'm sure not many people have even seen a small pile. But this is it's colossal. I think someone recently told me you can see it from space

Katherine Ann Byam 15:42
for. And I know that you also have a Halloween feature as well.

Roz Edwards  15:47
Yeah. So we get people in and in the daytime, and, and almost everybody says it. And that is, I bet it's really scary here at night. And so I went, I went down to Somerset, and it was at the time it was 2015. And it was the time when Banksy had launched Disneyland. So I went in and had a look around there and totally fell in love with the whole thing. And I looked at the size of that site and thought, Well, that's about the same size as mine, I could do something like this.

 And then that would provide the solution, if you like for all of those people is that I bet it's scary here at night. So what I did is I followed banks his whole way that he promoted it as well with you know, there's trip hazards, there's no lighting, you know, there's no toilets, all of this kind of thing, come with a torch, you know, prepare a little survival bag, you know, in case you get abducted by mannequins, and people loved it. They absolutely loved it.

So that's, you know, gone on for several years, when it came to 2020, of course, and all the fun that we've had there. We were all in the tears at that time. And everyone had to still stay in the family bubbles. Somebody said to me, you're going to do the Halloween this year? And I said, Well, I can't. How can I do it? So we've got this road, which at the time, obviously had loads of mannequins in the way. So I said, right, let's go clear that because people can drive round.

And that's what we do. We had a really successful event that year. And so many people thanked us for it, because we'd all been shut in for such a long time. The whole feeling that they could come out and be safe as well. I mean, I made up a story that there are child mannequins on the loose with teeth, you know, and they're very dangerous. So do not get out of your vehicle. I mean, obviously, I had the environmental health people at the council phoned me obviously have concerns with an event going on during COVID.

And I had them in absolute fits of laughter. They just said, we've got nothing to worry about with you, Ross. Just go ahead with it. It sounds brilliant. And then last year, we people were able to walk around again. So good. It's good.

Katherine Ann Byam 18:02
I want to wrap up with a final question, which is there are a lot of people who want to start sustainable businesses or have started them, and they're struggling with their growth.

Do you have any advice from the journey you've been on? Bringing the circular principle to life?

Roz Edwards  18:18
Yeah, so one thing that I think we can all do, which perhaps we don't, is just constantly be on the look, if you haven't already got a product that could be circular. Just keep your eyes peeled, because there are things out there that nobody is actually doing yet. And what's been great about mannequin is, man, I remember when I started someone saying, Oh, you say you're going to do shop fittings now and counters for shops and things. And they said, No, I'm not going to get distracted by all of this.

 It's just going to be mannequins. Because I mean, even within that niche, there's no other film location, Halloween events, and people being able to stay over in the mannequin graveyard at night. That's one of my next things I'm about I'm about to launch. And then just establish that really sort of simple, easy brand, right from the beginning. I mean, when I started, I thought if this isn't going to go big, I'm going to know quite shortly. And so I can change the idea and start to do something else. So yes, I'd registered the domains. I registered it as a limited company.

And I also bought the trademark as well. So I own the word mannequin, because nobody on this earth was going to get in my way, you know, so I was very, very determined. And all of those things are just so important. I've seen that they you know, a few people that are they haven't taken those steps, which you know, and it because they didn't know they weren't advised that that's what they should do. And then they've got so far with their business.

I need to find that there's someone bigger out there doing it. They're not the same but very similar. And they've trademarked the name. So what do you do that You know, how can you move forward, you've got to change and rebuild. And that, you know, having to get to that point is, is devastating, actually. But also, the other thing is to, is to think big. So interestingly, with my business, I knew that there were other manikin companies turning over in excess of a million. So the numbers game for me was, it's open, there's no, I only need this amount of money or what have you.

But interestingly, what happened is, yes, the turnover hit, you know, half a million, I've got all of these staffed worry about, it turned into this other thing, and I could see it going into something that I didn't necessarily want. And so I have actually scaled it back now, you know, with lots of different processes in place, so that, like all the automation, or the website is automated for people to go and hire mannequins and everything. So it's so important that we don't just start something and, and just get carried away in the here. And now we have to have that vision, we definitely have to have that vision and those solid foundations of things like, yes, it's a limited company.

Even the VAT return, I've registered for VAT when I was turning over 100 pounds a month, you know, the VAT threshold is obviously it's 85,000 pounds or something. Most people wait until they get to there. But then you've got to either add 20% onto your prices, or you've got to absorb that, you know, because it's an extra cost. So all of these sorts of things, but there's got to be foresight in it. You know, there's got to be a vision there of actually why why are we doing this? Why are we doing this?

Katherine Ann Byam 21:40
And I guess if you're if you're selling to companies, or hiring to companies, etc, then having that fact charges negligible to them. So it all makes sense if you design it that way. So finally, tell my listeners how they can find you.

Roz Edwards  21:53
So mannakin.com, so that's MANNAKIN because everyone has a problem with spelling, even the correct word of mannequins. And I've got a really, really beautiful lead magnet that explains why the mannequins are sustainable and circular. And what kind of mannequin you would need for different situations. And then a reference to the extra bits and pieces that I've got going on including club mannequin as well.

Katherine Ann Byam 22:24
Wonderful. I'm going to leave all the links for them. Thank you so much Ross for gracing us with your presence today. I know you're a very important YouTube superstar. Thanks for joining me.

Roz Edwards  22:36
Thank you.

Katherine Ann Byam 22:40
Season Four of where radius launch was brought to you today by Katherine Ann Byam business resilience and strategy consulting services. Katherine provides business assessments and strategic support to help guide your business toward a netzero future. Get in touch with Katherine Ann Byam on LinkedIn

068 Breaking Gender Bias Thread by Thread

068 Breaking Gender Bias Thread by Thread

About this Episode

Sally Dear is the founder of Ducky Zebra, a childrenswear brand that challenges the outdated gender stereotypes found in high-street kids’ clothing. 

She was frustrated by the impact of gender stereotypes on her children. The language they were hearing, TV they were watching, games they were playing, and the clothes they were wearing, so she decided to tackle one of these areas, clothing, as a means to changing the narrative. 

During her early research she discovered the negative impact of the fashion industry on the world around us. It accounts for 10% of global carbon emissions and nearly 20% of wastewater. In the UK an estimated 350,000 tonnes of clothing ends up in landfill every year.

She decided to run a different sort of clothing brand. Ducky Zebra supports slow fashion; and are passionate about reducing their environmental impact, being ethical and transparent. 

She’s won competitions, and features, and is working to build this revolutionary brand into a household name.

We talked about:

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Episode Transcript

Katherine Ann Byam 0:03
Sally, welcome to where Ideas Launch.

Sally Dear 1:33
Thank you so much for having me. I'm delighted to be here.

Katherine Ann Byam 1:36
Really great to have you. I'm going to start with the big question, why gender stereotypes such a burning issue for you. Can you share that with our listeners today?

Sally Dear 1:45
Well, I think for me, it became a burning issue after I saw the negative impact it was having on my two children. And after that point, I did quite a lot of research. And I discovered that between the ages of two and five children become avid gender detectives. So they're looking for clues to make sense of the world around them. And they're like sponges, so they absorb things at lightning speed.

And that might include the colour code of pink for girls and blue for boys, the toy rules of dolls and parents for girls, and sports and cars for boys and the behaviour rules of kind, sweet and pretty girls, and strong, brave and confident boys. And research shows that by the time children are as young as six, they've already made sense of the world around them, and their place within it. And this can then go on to influence future choices and decisions, such as the subjects they choose their career paths, their salary, mental health, and behaviour.

 So not only do these stereotypes influence their decisions, and limit their opportunities, but also, for those children that don't fit within a stereotype, it can be very stressful. So as an example, if a boy really likes to colour pink, in our world of pink for girls, and blue for boys, that boy might feel very confused and isolated. And sadly, they might be teased by other children for not following the gender rules that they've learned. So with that research on top of the the impact I see it was having on my children, I became very passionate about trying to remove those restrictive stereotypes.

Katherine Ann Byam 3:37
It's incredible how powerful children develop these skills at such young ages. And you don't actually realise it until you hear something when they can actually verbalise what they were they're thinking and perceiving. And then you're like, Well, where did this come from?

Sally Dear 3:52
completely agree. Sometimes we're almost blind to it, because we've grown up without ourselves.

Katherine Ann Byam 3:59
Yeah, you're right. So you decided to start with clothing. But you don't necessarily have a background in fashion. So tell us a bit about Ducky Zebra, and the sort of conceptualization of the brand the products and why they matter.

Sally Dear 4:12
But you're right, so my background isn't in fashion. It's a marketing and predominantly for the automotive and rail sectors. Why Ducky Zebra? Well, at the age of four, my daughter mentioned she couldn't be a taxi driver when she was older because she was a girl. And it made me stop and see the world through her eyes. And I decided I wanted to do something about it.

 And originally, I wanted to do something that would help her and other girls be whoever and whatever they wanted to be. But during my research, I discovered things were just as bad if not worse for boys. And at that point, I decided I wanted to do something that would help girls and boys equally.

Why clothes? Well, clothes are often seen as an expression Have our identity. And yet from the point that we're born, our gender often dictates what we wear. With girls often wearing clothes that are pink, and pastel in colour with cute pretty images, magic, fairies focus on looks and beauty and messages of kindness but not necessarily confidence, while the clothes for boys are often blue sludgy, and colour with ferocious teeth bearing predators, messages of bravery and heroism.

And while there might be a focus on confidence, there's not necessarily a focus on kindness. So with Ducky Zebra, we've created unisex clothes that celebrate both kindness and confidence equally for girls and boys alike. And they're suitable for babies and children up to six years old. And we've had children involved with the designs themselves, which means they're really bright, colourful, and good fun. So we know the children wants to wear them. And we've also tried our very hardest to design the clothes and manufacture them in a way that is as sustainable as possible.

Katherine Ann Byam 6:11
That's great. I remember when I was three or four years old, my mom dressed me up in this pink outfit, and I was like, I do not want to wear this I cried, cried and cried and cried until she switched me to the blue one. lasting memory!

So we hear and speak a lot about business models on this podcast in particular, because I like to explore something that I like to call the parallel of the business model and the impact model. So I'd like to ask a bit about your impact model as well. How have you set up your business to touch on the various sustainability interests that you have?

Sally Dear 6:48
This is such a good question. And sustainability has been important for Ducky Zebra from the very start, and it's one of our six core values. And I think maybe in order to answer your question, it makes sense to first look at what the business models like for the fashion industry typically. So it's one of multiple seasons, regular new shiny collections, fast production and low prices. And this forces pressure down onto the factories, onto the workers and onto the quality of the clothes. And it also creates a throwaway culture.

This isn't kind and it's not sustainable for the planet. So for Ducky Zebra we wanted to set up our business model differently. We do, of course, want to make money because we need to survive, and we want to grow. But it doesn't take priority over being kind to the people that make our clothes or to the planets. For us, we use the rethink, reuse, recycle and reduce framework. And that has really helped us. So by way of example, when we were looking at the fabric we wanted to use, we decided to use certified organic cotton to reduce our carbon emissions and our water waste. So the grown organic cotton requires up to 91% Less water compared to conventional cotton, and it admits up to 46% less emissions.

We also took a long time to carefully select our manufacturing partner. Now they're based in the south of India, and our values are really closely aligned. And they're continually looking for ways to rethink their processes in order to reduce that impact. As an example, currently, 50% of their power comes from solar energy, and soon as will be 85%. They also do things like harvest rainwater, which helps to say save the groundwater levels, and they recycle all wastewater. And then in terms of the clothes themselves and the designs we've used, we've really tried to prioritise longevity. And so they meet they're made from high quality fabric, they're designed to last and pass on to siblings and friends for reuse. And deciding is generous.

 And we have little features like roll up and roll down cuffs so that they can grow as the child grows. And by ensuring that they're durable. Their lifecycle can be extended, which again helps us to reduce our carbon water and waste footprints. We've also tried to ensure that our designs are timeless and unisex. So rather than adopting the latest trends or seasonal gimmicks, we're rethinking fashion for children. So we create small volumes of colourful unisex designs that can be reused regardless of the season or the agenda. If you don't have anyone to pass your old stock is ever close onto.

We have a pre loved programme which allows you to recycle your clothes by returning them to us and We then pass them on to the Oxford baby bank where they can be reused. We also work with a fantastic organisation called rap Cline's, who help upcycle any clothes that perhaps we can't pass on to somebody else, or were unable to sell. And they upcycle those into small little drawstring gift bags, which we can either pass on to customers or sell. So there are so many things that I could talk about. But I genuinely believe by being sustainable and trying to reduce our waste and impact, it opens up so many opportunities, and so many possibilities for being creative.

Katherine Ann Byam 10:39
And this is cool. And I want to tap into that a little bit if you can share a bit about the opportunities you've had, because of this lens that you've taken, but also some of the challenges you've faced in growing this business.

Sally Dear 10:52
So I mean, in terms of the opportunities, I touched upon wrap kinds, who are fantastic organisation, but they could see that with every and fashion industry, there is fabric waste. And together, we've looked at how we can reduce that waste by turning something that is ready to go into the bin into something that someone's going to really enjoy and love. And actually, so I've got a little pop up shop at the moment, and I sell these wrap kind bags. And they're fantastic size to keep like little distractions, if you're going out for a meal with your child, and you want to put a few activities into the bag to keep the child entertained, they're a great size for that. And the kids loved them. So it could have ended up in the bin.

 But instead, it's been loved and enjoyed in terms of the challenges. Well, I developed and launched ducky zebra, during the pandemic. And I would say without a doubt, that's been one of the biggest challenges. So like working on the designs while freelancing to raise funds, while homeschooling my two kids, and I was the manufacturing was delayed by around six months. And I had a very good relationship with the factory, and I wanted to remain loyal to them.

But I would say the fact that we were on opposite sides of the world at that point was definitely a challenge. And when we were coming out of lockdowns, they were going into them, the pandemic has definitely thrown a few challenges away. And then I'd say since launching, I have two kind of key daily challenges, which is raising awareness on a limited budget. And then I'm sure you experienced this yourself the constant juggling of competing priorities, and wearing multiple hats from one minute to the next. And particularly because a purpose led brands was sustainability at the heart, there is always more that we could be doing.

Katherine Ann Byam 13:05
Well, that's definitely takes a toll on you emotionally as well, the decision fatigue, because we have to review so many details. And you know, sometimes you have to to compensate to sacrifice some things that you really care about other things that you care about more. And it takes its toll. Right.

Sally Dear 13:25
I completely agree with you. There is that emotional drain? And because we're passionate about what we do, sometimes it is hard to make those compromises like you said, as well.

Katherine Ann Byam 13:36
Yeah, absolutely. So what would you say have been the keys to your success in this venture so far?

Sally Dear 13:45
I'd say. At the very beginning, before I started to do anything, I conducted research, and I managed to speak to over 1000, carers and parents. And I think that was invaluable. It highlighted a number of common problems and themes, which I was then able to start to address with my clothing and with the business. And I think doing that research before I created a solution has really helped. And the research also helped to crystallise my six core values.

So before I did anything, I had a good idea of the problem and the themes and trends. And I also have my six values. And that's helps to guide the products, our content and articles, our marketing and social media, and also the audience that I'm trying to reach. So I'd say that's been really valuable. And then I would also say being flexible and adapting to change and being open to trying new things and collaborating with new people, especially during the pandemic when there have been so many unknowns has really helps with our success as well.

Katherine Ann Byam 15:02
And well done for persevering through through it all and getting to this point. Thank you. How has the journey impacted your children? Oh,

Sally Dear 15:10
well, sadly, my daughter is now too big for our clothes. So it took me too long to launch and when she's upset about, but I really hope that I'm being a positive role model to her. And as for my son, Eli, he loves the clothes, he proudly wears them. And inside each of the pockets, there's a little embroidered splash motif, which acts as a physical reminder for children to splash kindness and confidence.

And he loves rubbing the little embroidery and he doesn't have to wear a school uniform. So he loves to wear his duckies every trousers so that he can rub that at school. And I think he for him, the values of kindness and confidence really appeal. So aside from having a very busy and slightly stressed Mum, I'm hoping that it's had a positive impact on them.

Katherine Ann Byam 16:03
I get that, as a woman running a sustainable business, what advice do you have for people getting started today or thinking about it?

Sally Dear 16:11
I think it's great being a woman running and starting a sustainable business. I've been amazed at the fantastic network of people, yourself included that I've come across, and people are so open to collaborating and supporting one another. In terms of advice, I'd say Believe in yourself. Know what your purpose is, or the problem that you're solving.

 And stay true to that collaborate and connect with other like minded people, and in particular, other people that are at a similar stage in their business journey to you. And so I've been really fortunate and finding a number of people that I can speak to and share ideas with and learn from as well. Get used to working outside of your comfort zone because you can do it. And finally, have fun and enjoy yourself because you're going to be spending a lot of your day doing it. So you need to love it as well.

Katherine Ann Byam 17:12
Great advice. How can my listeners reach out and connect with your brand?

Unknown Speaker 17:17
Thank you so much for asking. I'd love to connect with you on our website, which is duckyzebra.com. Or through social media. Our handle is @duckyzebra. And we're active on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, and Twitter.

Katherine Ann Byam 17:34
Really lovely to have you here and best wishes for the rest of 2022.

Sally Dear 17:38
Thank you so much Katherine.