About this Episode

Nancy Hyne is a sustainability advisor and founder of True Horizon Sustainability Strategies.

Her mission is to support SMEs with no-nonsense strategy and support. Getting to the heart of your sustainability goals, Nancy helps impact driven companies revamp their business model to balance people, profit and the planet.  She’s based in the beautiful New Forest area in the south of England, but works with businesses across the UK and the world. 

Her services include:

1. Environmental certifications including ISO 14001 and B Corp
2. Sustainability strategy development
3. Stakeholder engagement
4. Carbon emissions calculations

• LinkedIn

Episode Transcript

 Katherine Ann Byam 0:01
Is there something more that small businesses should be thinking about contributing to, to sort of help the ecology but also the society around them?

Nancy Hyne 0:11
I think this is one again, where that engagement piece is key. Like if we if we think at the moment cost of living is skyrocketing. So probably if you have employees, they're a little bit nervous about how they're going to meet costs and things start to ask the question, it's no good you kind of offering free yoga if actually what they want to do is they might ned meal vouchers or, you know, whatever it might be, getting that engagement with your employees first as a starting point, what are the challenges you're facing? And how can we help paying a living wage? You know, what are the things that your employees need, from a community point of view, make it personal, yeah, you can go and plant trees, if that's what you want to do. Great. That's a positive thing to do. But if there's things going on in your local region, get people involved get the engagement, what matters to the employees, in your company, and in your local community.

Katherine Ann Byam 1:03
This is season five, the great debates of our times, Season Five will be centred around the great debates. And we will be comparing and contrasting different viewpoints on various topics that are consuming the public discourse at present. The reason I've decided to take this approach is because, we or at least many of us, are losing the skill of debate. And I think this is an essential skill for us all to practice once more. I don't see how we get to the point of saving the world and saving our planet, if we don't know how to discuss our differences. I also think that the solution to most of our challenges is somewhere in the spectrum of views but never at either extreme. I will be working with guests to curate the content and discuss beforehand, I will understand their positions, their areas of genius, and navigate my questions around that so that the conversation is challenging and stimulating without being combative. I hope you enjoy Season Five of Where Ideas launch; The Sustainable Innovation Podcast. Nancy Hyne is a sustainability advisor and founder of true horizon sustainability strategies. Her mission is to support SMEs with no nonsense strategy and support. Getting to the heart of your sustainability goals, Nancy helps impact driven companies revamp their business models to balance people, profit and the planet. She's based in the beautiful new forest area in the south of England, but works for businesses across the UK and the world. Nancy, welcome to Where Ideas launch.

Nancy Hyne 2:32
Thank you for having me, Katherine.

Katherine Ann Byam 2:34
Really wonderful to have you and really wonderful to have someone from the New Forest. I love the new forest. Me and my partner spend a lot of time there when we can because I live in the centre of Southampton but we often take a day trip to walk in the woods.

Nancy Hyne 2:47
You should definitely give me a call next time you're down. You'll, you'll have two Labradors in tow. But yeah, we're out there all the time.

Katherine Ann Byam 2:55
That's perfect, we have a date. So we've been connected for some time on LinkedIn exchanging comments and a lot of positive energy, but we've never managed speak. So this is really a pleasure. So thank you for joining me. And I want to start with your why. And that's where any good story begins. So tell us how you came to run your environmental advisory practice and what the sustainability movement means to you.

Nancy Hyne 3:18
Yeah, so I actually started my career as a structural engineer, so designing buildings, and I chose engineering, a little bit out of the blue, I wanted to travel and I did end up travelling, I ended up working in Sydney. And I started working on quite a cool project that was very focused on sustainability and community. And I kind of realised that I liked that side of it more than the actual structural design. So I did a bit of a sidestep while I was out there. And I started looking at kind of new build design, how we can use buildings better and be more efficient. But when I moved back to the UK, it's quite a different market. And also we have a lot of old building stock here. So it became much more about looking at the way businesses operate. Yes, of course, the building feeds into that. But you know, looking at things like business, travel and energy consumption, you know, how do we change the way that we work, and use our buildings to be more sustainable to be more responsible. And I worked in corporate for a long time, which is great, because I learned a huge amount, but I started to realise that there was not as much support available for SMEs. And here in the UK SMEs account for over 99% of businesses, they have a huge impact. And they often don't have those in house teams. They don't necessarily have the budgets, you know, they can't hire the big consultants who are desperate to work for the big companies. But I realised that there was some really great, sustainable, responsible businesses coming through, you know, people who had left the corporate world, wanted to do things a bit differently, but they didn't have the support that they needed. I think also the move from London to the new forest had a big impact. You know, a lot of people who are not based in London, don't live in London for a reason, you know, they want that space, they want the countryside, they want the new forest, they want all of these things. And I started to wonder if there was a way that we could kind of level the playing field, how do we give those businesses the opportunity to compete against the larger corporates, but also to give them that chance to grow and evolve their business in a way that feels right and ethical for them without a huge admin burden, but also in a way that sort of profits, the business as well, you know, we want ethical responsible businesses to be profitable, to keep going, to survive and to compete against those big corporates. So that's kind of where I, where I started. So kind of using all the learnings from my corporate life, because quite often, these smaller businesses have large clients or, you know, they're being asked to do things by these larger clients. So being able to tap into that knowledge and give them the tools that need, they need to be able to compete and to thrive as well.

Katherine Ann Byam 5:59
This is really important that I'm glad that you're doing this. It's one of the reasons my partner and I also left the corporate world and decided to set up a business dedicated to SMEs, really. So I wanted to move to this experience that you've heard working with clients or general case studies, perhaps what do you know to be the characteristics of a company operating effectively as a B Corp?

Nancy Hyne 6:21
I think a lot of it comes down to motivation, you know, you, people come to a certification, like B Corp for lots of different reasons. The ones that I really love working with, and the ones that I kind of will filter out are those businesses that have a real desire to be better and to do better and have a positive impact. So I've worked with companies who are going through the certification process, and they really want to use that to learn and to kind of better their business, but also on the other side of B Corp, but once you've got that certification, it's a great accolade, you've worked really hard to get there. But what do you do next? And I think with any certification, it's all about that commitment to keep improving. So I think that's the ultimate drive for B Corp or any other certification that you really want to learn. And you're committed to change and to being better and to challenging that status quo about what being a business owner means and what the purpose of a business is. Beyond just putting money in shareholder pockets.

Katherine Ann Byam 7:22
Yeah, some will say that ESG, B Corp, all give businesses an opportunity for greenwashing, because the business itself doesn't have to be ethical, or to score full points on the assessments, what would be your response to those who doubt the merits of what we're trying to do with these metrics that we're coming up with?

Nancy Hyne 7:42
I think the reality is, there's always going to be an opportunity to skew things in your favour, to greenwash, to whatever you're doing. There's ways and means of doing it. I think the key thing is really to look at a companies transparency when they're doing this sort of things, if they're, if all they're doing is shouting about the good in inverted commas that they do, and they're never flagging the challenges, you know, the things that they're not doing well, we all, you know, business is inherently unsustainable, we are consuming, we're travelling we're, it is just, you know, by living, we have an impact. So yes, of course, there can be ways to skew it. And I think it's important to remember that no certification is perfect. It's not a symbol of perfection, it's a symbol of drawing a line in the sand and committing to improvement. So I think it gets a little bit dangerous if we sort of throw it out all together, because it's, it's actually really unfair on the businesses that have done it for the right reasons, heart lead, and are committed to being better. But I also think, and we kind of touched on this earlier in the week, there's huge changes coming to B Corp over the next few years, and they're in the middle of a consultation phase at the moment, and the proposals are quite different, there's going to be a lot of impact to current B Corps, and to ones that are planning to certify in the future, and I think that's right, I think so much has changed in society over the last few years. And we have to address that, we do have to keep changing and improving and challenging ourselves. And it'll be interesting to see whether you know, some B Corps decide that it's no longer the root for them. And it will be interesting to see how attainable some of the things that they're talking about, because there are some really challenging areas that we have to address. And how do we make it accessible for all businesses and try and weed out the people who are trying to kind of just make it a marketing ploy. So there's a, there's a tricky balance there.

So we're gonna come back to the changes, but I wanted to first touch on some of the content of what that B Corp assessment is. So, I myself, have done the B Impact assessment on my own business, and I never moved forward to make my business a B Corp, for the reasons we've been discussing, probably before we actually got onto the session, but for me, and I guess for people who are listening who are on the fence or thinking about it, could you explain what the B Impact assessment really does? And probably go into a little bit about where people need the most help, usually, when you get involved with helping them through this assessment.

Yeah, so the thing I like about B Corp is that it's very holistic. So you're looking, there's not many certifications that, that, take that wider view, there's a lot that focus on environment or social, but this kind of looks at everything. So you've got five sections from governance, community, workers, customers, and environment. So you're really looking at every business decision you're making. And the idea is that you go through the assessment, and you answer questions, and you get scored based on the industry your in, the size of your business. So the questions are tailored based on those differences in businesses, and you are aiming to get a minimum of 80 points across all of those sections. And what I tend to find is, particularly for SMEs, there's two areas that come up a lot. One is the governance side of things, as a small business you might not have, you might do things a certain way, but you may not have policies, formal policies in place. And that can feel a little bit daunting for businesses. I went through the B Corp process for my own business. And it felt a little weird writing policies for myself. But actually, it's cemented some of the things that I've been thinking about, and it made me really sit down and think, okay, how do I operate in this space. And it's also come in quite handy for project bids and stuff, if people are asking about your values, you can point them to, you know, a code of conduct or an environmental policy. So, but it can feel a little bit daunting, if you're not used to that. The other big one is environment, you're going to struggle to score any points if you're not sort of calculating and tracking emissions. And that can be really a challenging task for a lot of companies. I see it a lot with again, particularly with SMEs, just you know where to start, and how to unravel all the terminology and make sense of what a tonne of carbon looks like. And, you know, what does, what's different scope. So that tends to be another area that I focus on quite a lot with, I normally, you know, there's a bit of a mixture, I think, going through the process highlights what you do really well. So you might look after your employees really well. But it also highlights the areas where you have room for improvement. So it's a really good process to go through. And you can start setting longer term goals for where you want to take your business and how you want to improve it. And I think you know, even that getting to certification is such a great process. And it's fantastic to watch businesses make changes and, and get excited about what they're doing and how they're improving.

Katherine Ann Byam 12:50
This is wonderful. And let's touch a little bit on some of the key tips to bringing yourself up to that 80, 80 level, what are some, some great ideas that people have been able to implement relatively easily.

Nancy Hyne 13:06
The the big, quick wins tend to be the policy ones. So yeah, they take a little bit of time to sit down and think about and write. But it's kind of a no cost option, which is great, if you don't have massive budgets to align to it. One of the things I'd really recommend is not leaving it to one person in the business, get engagement built, bring people into it, they're going to have ideas they're going to have, you know, they're, and you're also going to find out what else is going on in other areas of the business that you can focus on, you want to tailor it, you know, if you're about to do a big recruitment drive, have a look at the employee section, make it relevant to where your business is at now, you know, it's going to help you think about the wording you use in job adverts or how accessible they are, how are you building diversity into your business. So make it really relevant for for what's going on in your business at that particular point in time. And you know, have, have things in your back pocket for future use as well. Because some there won't be, there will be things in there that you think we actually can't do that now for whatever reason, don't worry about that focus on the things you can do. But really build that engagement across the business to get feedback. And because you're going to need you know, people from finance, or HR or whatever it is. So really make sure to get them involved. And try not to look at it as just ticking boxes make it really relevant to where your business is at and the the kind of immediate areas that you want to improve on.

Katherine Ann Byam 14:28
Okay, this is fair enough. I want to ask another question about the carbon tracking. Do we all need to consider implementing an environmental management system? Is there a carbon app we can use? What's the best practice here?

Nancy Hyne 14:40
I think it is an important thing to do. Whether you go down a certification route with your environmental management system or not is by the by, but you can't really understand your impact or improve it if you don't have the numbers. So while it can feel a little bit daunting, it's really going to help you target particular areas. So, so often businesses come to me and they say, you know, we've got rid of plastic, we're reducing our waste, we don't really know what next, because they don't actually know the impact that, that's having, you know, they don't know, I worked with a company, I've been working with them for a couple of years, and we were looking at their overall emissions, and we found that, you know, something like 60, or 70% of their emissions came from their deliveries. So that gave us a real opportunity to go, okay, that's going to be our focus for the next 12 months, how do we reduce that? What are the ways that we can look at reducing that impact and improving our sort of environmental credential? So yes, it's really important that you have those numbers, and that you're tracking and monitoring that going forward, not just for the reduction, but so you can celebrate your wins as well. Otherwise, how do you know the impacts that you're having? So you don't necessarily need to have a certification to do that. But it's a really good starting point. And it feeds into what we call sort of materiality. Are you, what are the key aspects in your business that are influencing the people planet, so you know, again, being able to identify areas that have a big environmental impact, therefore, they are quite material in your business, and you need to, you know, start writing policies, you know, if it's travel, you know, maybe your business travel is quite high, that you have to go out and buy a whole fleet of electric vehicles, that's probably not feasible for most businesses overnight. But you can start implementing travel policies, or perhaps have a electric pool car that people can use. So it just gives you ideas for where your biggest impact is, and how you start to set targets and understand those numbers and where you have room for improvement.

Katherine Ann Byam 16:43
I agree, you're speaking to the converted definitely here and probably on the podcast in general, let's let's pivot to small businesses and social impact. Because I know, I know that you say that, you know, there's some assessments that look mainly at the social impacts and not necessarily at the environment, and therefore you spend a lot more time helping people to sort the environmental side. But in terms of the social impact, is there something more that small businesses should be thinking about contributing to, to sort of help the ecologi, but also the society around them?

Nancy Hyne 17:15
Yeah, and I think this is one again, where that engagement piece is key. Like if we if we think at the moment, cost of living is skyrocketing. So probably, if you have employees, they're a little bit nervous about how they're going to meet costs and things, start to ask the question, it's no good you kind of offering free yoga, if actually what they want to do is, they might need meal vouchers, or, you know, whatever it might be. So getting that engagement with your employees first as a starting point, what are the challenges you're facing? And how can we help? You know, being, giving them that financial security, I think is so important, paying a living wage, is a start, you know, how, what are the things that your employees need to feel secure, it's going to impact their mental health, from a community point of view, make it personal, yeah, you can go plant trees, if that's what you want to do. Great. That's a positive thing to do. But if there's things going on in your local region, I worked with a client recently, and they wanted to do something really community based, and I introduced them to the Solent Seagrass Project. So they're gonna go and sponsor, so if you're not aware, or if any of your listeners aren't aware. Seagrass has so much potential for sequestering carbon. And it's a fantastic, Solent's doing a lot of research here in the Solent region. But actually, there's seagrass projects across the country. And they felt that, that was really personal to them. It was part of their local community, they're a local business. So make it personal, like get people involved, get the engagement, what matters to the employees, in your company, and in your local community, all of these different groups of stakeholders, understanding what is important to them, and what they need from you, in terms of your social and environmental impact is really key. And it really helps to form a strategy that is relevant to the people that you impact.

Katherine Ann Byam 19:01
Yeah, absolutely. This one's kind of big. Do you think our current systems of politics and economics can adapt in sufficient time to help us keep warming to below one point five to two degrees? And I'm not asking you for what you hope for, I'm asking you for what you think.

Nancy Hyne 19:17
In a word? No, I don't, I don't think so. I don't think here in the UK, I can't speak globally, but I don't think here in the UK that climate action is as much of a priority as it should be at the moment, without dwelling too much on the stuff that's happening in number 10, at the moment. Yeah, I think we're not seeing policies that are going to really help us act. But that said, I almost think in a way it's irrelevant. Do we need to wait for legislation to act or are there enough businesses who care enough that they will act, particularly for small businesses, so there was a recent study by the British Business Bank and they found that that when it comes to UK businesses and the emissions associated with UK businesses, SMEs account for 50% of that, that is a big chunk of emissions that SMEs are responsible for. And genuinely when there's environmental legislation coming through SMEs fall below the sort of the, they're not caught up in that legislation, like the larger corporates are. So maybe it's time to stop waiting for legislation and just, people to start acting, we can do it without government if we need to, and actually sharing our journeys and encouraging others and showing how it can be done and being honest about the challenges that we're facing. And building that collaboration is so important. So maybe we don't need, I mean, the government should be acting, but maybe it's time to stop waiting for them and just to take matters into our own hands and start making these changes without waiting for them, and without waiting to see what policies they're going to implement. Because if nothing else, even if they implemented a load policies today, it would still take time to filter through and have an impact. And we're kind of out of time. So we need immediate action, even if that starting small, great start, start it, build the motivation and go from there. But I think we've got to stop waiting for government because it's we're not seeing enough of a push, and we need it, we need, we need people to just take matters into their own hands.

Katherine Ann Byam 21:21
So I like that response. And I'm gonna say something. So when I started in business three, four years ago, I remember thinking that at the time, I thought that people weren't aware of all the challenges. And you know, it's quite a lot to get your head around, because there's so many angles to this stuff. But actually, now I've come to think that it's not a lack of awareness that we're suffering from, it's okay, I've got to take care of me. And this is quite a challenge, right? And we're moving from a place of, oh, it's all abundance, you know, go out and conquer the world, because there's enough here for everyone. And let's just go take, and now people are realising maybe it's not like that, but they don't want to be left holding the bag. So even though they know a lot of people are still acting, let's say, out of integrity with the planet, what are your thoughts on how, how we shift that? Is it possible to shift it?

Nancy Hyne 22:16
For some, yes, I think for some, you know, there's just that element of, I don't care. If it's not directly impacting me, I don't care, which is kind of a sad place to be. But on the flip side, I have seen so many incredible businesses coming through who actually, their barrier isn't not caring, it's not kind of knowing where to start? Or how to make that first step or what, what are the big impact, impactful changes that they should be making? So I think there's been this, there's this real sense of judgement, when it comes to sustainability, everyone's quick to say, that's the wrong thing to do. You can't do this, you have to do this. And it's not helpful. In fact, I think it's a deterrent, and it stops people being able to share and ask questions and have conversations. And I think that's been a big problem. And I think the more that we see businesses thrive, and the impact the positive impacts they're having. And I've seen a lot of this, you know, on LinkedIn, I've seen stories about companies who are paying their workers, energy bills, and you know, all of this stuff, and we see it and we go, yeah, okay, there is change, there are people who care, and the more that people are talking about that sort of thing, and showing how we can do it differently and challenging what the norm is, the more people I think, will see it as a viable option. Not everyone, I'm sure, but it's going to build that momentum it's going to build, if we're a bit more accepting and where people are starting their journey from where they're, where they're at, at that point in time. I mean, I'm certainly not perfect. I'm not vegan, I don't drive an electric car, you know, there's a lot of things that I could change to, but if I stopped talking about, you know, or supporting other people, it's, it's kind of having the opposite effect that it should be. So we just need to be a little bit more understanding and a little bit more encouraging of others.

Katherine Ann Byam 24:21
Yeah, this, you remind me of a debate I had with someone a few months back, which was, I drive a diesel car, it's since 2016. I maintain it really well. So it's not like emitting more than it should, etcetera. I don't want to replace it because just, just taking a car off the shop floor is already costing so much in terms of resource extraction and conversion. And it's difficult to make these kinds of decisions, right. It's like you drive around as someone advocating for sustainability in a diesel car and everybody looks at you like; what? What are you doing, but, but it's more complex than that, right. And you know, how do we, how do we raise that awareness about all these things?

Nancy Hyne 25:06
Yeah, exactly that. And I think you've got to be a little bit thick skinned and be willing to put your hand up and say, I'm not perfect. I know, there's more things that I could do and, what you know, do I shop at shop on Amazon? Yes, I try to buy locally, and I try to support small business, but sometimes I, you know, there isn't an alternative that works, whether it's timings or price or whatever. And that's okay. It's about making the better choices when you can and working to improve. And the more that we do that, the more options are available to us, you know, we are going to rely on on technology, we need to, we need better tech to support what we're doing. And we have a lot of power in where we spend our money as an individual and as a business, the more that we support businesses that are doing things differently, the more that they can provide us with better alternatives. So yeah, I think, you know, we run the risk of beating ourselves up over every decision we make that isn't as sustainable as we'd like it to be. But to what end, you know, we're all sort of imperfect, it's all about imperfect sustainability, because of course, we have an impact. But how can we become more conscious in what we're consuming and and who we're buying from? And I think certainly with with COVID, it's just highlighted so many of these inequalities, and I guess the system is ultimately broken, so how do we start to shift that change? It's difficult, and it will take time, but to kind of keep again, in a similar way, getting better informing ourselves, you know, starting to learn about what other options are, and just being more vocal about what's out there and what's available.

Katherine Ann Byam 26:46
Yeah, it's, it's fascinating to me just to touch very lightly on the war in Ukraine at the moment, because that's having so many repercussions in Africa and around the world. But what I realised earlier this year, how many nuclear weapons that have been developed around the world, when we only need one or two, for things to be game over for all of us, it's quite amazing that we've allowed that level of investment in something so useless.

Nancy Hyne 27:15
Yeah. And something so terrifying.

Katherine Ann Byam 27:18
Yeah, and it just, it just makes me think that we definitely have issues with our priorities. And we're not likely to probably overcome these things. Which brings me to my next question, what adaptation strategies have you looked at, which might still bring us hope? If we can't manage the two degrees?

Nancy Hyne 27:37
This is such a difficult one. Because I think ultimately, we know that the results will be catastrophic. We just don't know how catastrophic. So we were joking earlier about, you know, does everyone go and build an ark? You know, what do we do? How do we manage this? And I think the reality is, we don't know, I couldn't tell you, as you were talking about some of these crazy ideas that people have folding work, maybe but how do we plan for something where we don't quite know what it looks like? You know, I think there will be, we're already seeing sort of climate, refugees, people who can't live and work and survive in the places they were in. I don't think there's a simple solution to that, or even a complex solution to that, I ultimately think that the result is going to be a lot of deaths. I don't know that there's a way we fix this after the fact, we need to be very focused, at the moment, I think, on how do we stop this happening in the first place? As far as we possibly can? Because I don't know what happens after that!

Katherine Ann Byam 28:37
Yeah, it's such a, it's such a challenging puzzle. And I feel on my side, i feel as if we need to do both. So we need to stop the damaging things. But we also need to prepare, because I think if we, from what I'm seeing, I'm struggling to see that we're going to do what we need to do, especially in the timeframe that we really should do it. You know, there's so many discussions about timeframes. And every scientific paper that I've read suggests that 2030 is already pushing it. Right. And we're talking 2040 2050, which 2035 for for the sale of diesel and petrol cars and stuff like this. And it seems too far away. It seems. I can tell you right now, in October in the UK, I'm still walking around in short sleeves when I go to the park, right, which is like, I've never done that before. This is the first year that I feel like yeah, like this is happening. So it's coming as you can, you can definitely sense that there's a big change afoot. And I feel as if we need to work towards adapting where we can, finding those solutions where we can reallocate people, I don't know, this if Ttis actually makes sense, but we need to find ways that we can redistribute and look at how we can adapt for those who really need it right now because there are a lot of people who are in dire circumstances at the moment but I'm gonna leave that there because it is quite a sad one. And I want to say what, what recommendations or small actions would you recommend to households to accommodate the changes that they need to make?

Nancy Hyne 30:11
Yeah, one of the biggest things you can do on a personal level is your money. Who do you bank with? Where's your pension investment? You know, you were talking about, you know, nuclear weaponry? Well, the chances are, if you haven't specifically opted out, your pension is invested in fossil fuels, it's invested in arms trading. And this is something that is becoming talked about a lot more. And it's a fantastic way to actually say, look, my money has power, and I'm not putting it in those things. I'm not supporting those things. So yeah, look at who you bank with where your investments are, pensions, things like that. But also consumption, you know, whether that's energy consumption, or the food we consume, or the waste that we produce, be a little bit more conscious of what you're buying. And what that means, again, it comes down to our money and the power that we have. And you know, we mentioned government, and yes, they're slow, but we need to be much more vocal about what we expect from government, I think a lot of people are probably frustrated with the goings on at the moment. But if we don't speak out, if we don't talk and raise our voices, again, that collective power is really important. And voting, please, please, please, you know, use your voice, we've been given it and you have an opportunity to, to shout about the things that are important to you. So use it and use it wisely.

Katherine Ann Byam 31:34
Okay, I want to bring us back to a positive note to wrap this up, because we've been going down a very dire place . And I really want to bring us back. So what I want to ask is share with us a campaign or company or someone who has inspired you in the last year or so in terms of the work that you're doing, or things that you've seen. And let's see what we can get from that example.

Nancy Hyne 32:00
There's a client that I've been working with for a couple of years now, they actually came to me after they got B Corp certified, because they went, what do we do now? How do we get better, and they are a coffee provider, they're really small business. So you know, a lot of times people go, we can't do things as a small business, we haven't got the budgets, we haven't got, you know, whatever it is, but you can and they're doing a lot of really fantastic work. I mean, the coffee industry is so complex. And there's a lot of injustices associated that the climate impacts are huge for the industry. And I love seeing the sort of passion and the ambition in what they're doing, and how they are really working hard to understand their impacts across the supply chain. And to really choose carefully who they work with. Some of their suppliers, for example, are helping farmers actually calculate whether they're making a profit or not, they've developed support and tools to help these farmers work out what it costs to live, and therefore what they need to be charging. They're taking the onus off and the risk levels, you know, if the farmer is not paid properly, and they're wiped out by a flood or a drought, for example, what do they do? And why is it fair that that one person takes all the responsibility in that supply chain, so the work that they've been doing and the projects that are going on supporting local communities and how they're empowering those communities, it's just really phenomenal. And it's, it's really fantastic to see. And it's hard work, you know, it's not an easy fix. But to see that sort of dedication and how it's really part of who they are as a business. And the core of what they do is really inspiring.

Katherine Ann Byam 33:34
Thank you for that. It gives me goosebumps, yes, to know that there are people who are trying to make a difference where it really matters, I, I've collaborated with a few handloomers in India, and they were trying to explain to me the supply chain for what they do, and how little of that benefit they actually receive. And, you know, they kind of work in sort of communities. And it's a bit like it almost feels as if this person who's co-ordinating them has to make sure that they have all the medication that they need and all this sort of thing because the income that they're making doesn't allow them to go to the hospitals or whatever it is right. And you realise that one of the ladies that I spoke to she wanted to use blockchain to help trace the whole supply chain etc. So that she could help those farmers more and I thought, wow, this kind of story really fills me with, with hope, right, that we can, we can use technology, we can use various things to try to make a difference in real people's lives. Yeah. And that matters.

Nancy Hyne 34:37
It matters so much. And it's raising that awareness as well. You know, I certainly is guilty of you know, seeing a fair trade sticker and assuming great I've done my bit. You know, there's more to it, we need people to know the challenges so that they can act and behave differently. But yeah, it's so inspiring to see, it fills me with so much hope it's great from a selfish perspective, it makes my job a lot of fun.

Katherine Ann Byam 35:03
On that note, what advice would you give to consultants starting in this area and wanting to do more to help,

Nancy Hyne 35:09
I think focus on your, where you're sort of niche where your talent is, you know, sustainability, responsibility affects everything that we do. Maybe it's diversity and inclusion, and maybe it's environmental impact. We're all coming at this from different areas. So we need different voices and different views and different skill sets. So work out what's important to you, what really, you know, if you're watching the news at night, what is the thing that makes you go, I really want to do something about that, and focus on that particular area, because we need that talent. And that passion is what's going to make you really good at that particular area. And we need that we really need that.

Katherine Ann Byam 35:47
Perfect, Nancy, it's been a pleasure, I think we've covered every possible base we could, and I've really enjoyed the conversation, let my listeners know how they can get in touch with you and work with you if they want to in the future.

Nancy Hyne 36:00
The best way to sort of find out what I do is LinkedIn, I'm pretty active on there. So you know, stalk me for a bit if you're not willing to send me an email straightaway. But otherwise, I'm happy to share my email address and website and people can go in and have a look. And yeah, I'm always open for a chat. So if you want to talk anything through; feel free,

Katherine Ann Byam 36:18
Wonderful. So you're going to find Nancy's details in the show notes. Thank you, Nancy, very much for joining us and see you soon on LinkedIn or in person. Yeah, hopefully.

Nancy Hyne 36:26
Thank you so much, Katherine for having me.

Katherine Ann Byam 36:28
Take care.

This podcast is brought to you today by the brand new Women In Sustainable Business Awards that kicks off in 2023. If you're a business owner who's starting a business with principles of sustainability in mind, and you want to preserve some lost skills, some handcrafting, artisanal work, or you're a social media manager supporting purpose driven brands, or you're creating fashion, or something that is relevant to the sustainability and green transformation, you are more than welcome to join us, and to get involved in these awards. Check out our group, on Facebook; Woman In Sustainable Business, or follow the podcast; Where Ideas Launch, on Instagram to find out more.

About this Episode

Russ Avery is an eco entrepreneur, sustainable marketer, and CEO of purpose-driven brand consultancy Avery & Brown. With over a decade’s experience of marketing sustainable brands, including six years in-house at two large corporate sustainability consultancies, Russ not only has a deep knowledge of sustainable and ethical marketing practices, but also of the sustainable and regenerative business movement.

Quote: Is sustainability becoming obsolete?

The global scientific consensus and the latest IPCC report confirms that we are way past the point of needing businesses to be 'sustainable'. Instead, we need businesses to be regenerative - whereby they give back far more to society and the planet than they take.

I envision a world in which every business is regenerative - that's the world I want to live in.

__________________________________________

Avery & Brown is a specialist brand consultancy and marketing agency which puts people and planet on par with profit. They work solely with ambitious, sustainability-focused (and increasingly regenerative) businesses which share their bold vision for a better world.

They currently partner with clients in the UK, Europe and North America. Their team has 30 plus years’ of combined brand, marketing and design experience, and they have been immersed in the world of sustainability since 2010. 

• Avery and Brown's Website
• LinkedIn
• Instagram

@averyandbrown

Episode Transcript

Katherine Ann Byam 0:00
So what role does marketing have to play in some of the inequality and health challenges that we currently face in your view? And how can we do better?

Russ Avery 0:08
Yeah, so there's absolutely no doubt about it. Historically, marketing and advertising has been a massive part of the problem. There's just no two ways about it. It sounds crazy when you actually take a step back to think about it, doesn't it that we will actively buy things and consume things which we know are bad for us. But of course, we've seen a cool advert or a great marketing campaign for it, and it makes us desire that thing. So 100% marketing has played a massive role in where it gets interesting for me is how it now can and must be part of the solution. And I mentioned earlier about how we can achieve that by working on positive campaigns which are honest and authentic and which you know, don't greenwash, to educate people.

Katherine Ann Byam 1:00
This is season five, the great debates of our times, Season Five will be centred around the great debates. And we will be comparing and contrasting different viewpoints on various topics that are consuming the public discourse at present. The reason I've decided to take this approach is because, we or at least many of us, are losing the skill of debate. And I think this is an essential skill for us all to practice once more. I don't see how we get to the point of saving the world and saving our planet, if we don't know how to discuss our differences. I also think that the solution to most of our challenges is somewhere in the spectrum of views but never at either extreme. I will be working with guests to curate the content and discuss beforehand, I will understand their positions, their areas of genius, and navigate my questions around that so that the conversation is challenging and stimulating without being combative. I hope you enjoy Season Five of Where Ideas launch; The Sustainable Innovation Podcast. For us, Avery is an eco entrepreneur, sustainable marketer and CEO of purpose driven brand consultancy Avery & Brown, with over a decade of experience, marketing sustainable brands, including six years in house at two large corporate sustainability consultancies. Ross not only has a deep knowledge of sustainable and ethical marketing practices, but also of the sustainable and regenerative business movement as a whole. Russ, welcome to Where iIdeas Launch.

Russ Avery 2:28
Thank you so much for having me, Katherine. It's great to be here. And I'm a big fan of the podcast. So it's a pleasure to be in such good company.

Katherine Ann Byam 2:36
That's awesome. I'm always excited to hear that people have listened to my podcast. I don't know why. I know that the statistics are great, but every time someone tells me I get excited again. So thank you for sharing that. We've been connected for some time now on LinkedIn, I discovered your work through Howard Gunstock at Carbon Capture and your content is extremely engaging. I don't know if you remember this, but you posted a video of your daughter singing a song from Keane since then I've updated my Spotify playlist with Keanes music, so, I'd genuinely forgotten how good they are. So thank you for that.

Russ Avery 3:08
You're welcome. Yeah, that was actually a really nice surprise for me too, because my daughter recorded that with my dad, her granddad accompanying her on the guitar. So it was a lovely surprise when my dad sent me that video. And it was during cop 26 last year. So I just thought it was a perfect song to be used as a soundtrack for a quick video. Thanks in large part to that great line in the song. This could be the end of everything. Yeah. And so I just put it together. And yeah, it's it was quite nice piece.

Katherine Ann Byam 3:36
It was magic. It was it was internet magic. Absolutely. So you mentioned on your LinkedIn profile that you've been involved in the sustainability transition since 2010. So I'd love to know your why. And also, if you could tell us a bit about your statement that sustainability is out and regeneration is in?

Russ Avery 3:54
Sure. So to answer the first part of the question for me, it was all about discovering my why and my purpose before I even really knew what, what those times meant. It was 2009 and I'd been doing various temp jobs for two years since graduating. I graduated with a degree in languages and I had no idea what I wanted to do for a career as most of my friends didn't either. It's pretty common, I guess. So I'd been a runner at a film production company, I'd worked for a small charity, I did some admin and archiving for a law firm. I even did a year at Deloitte in forensic accounting. So it's definitely safe to say that I was jumping around from job to job with no drive or job satisfaction. You know, it was a terrible job market. It was a global financial crisis. And none of my friends were getting jobs that they wanted to do, either they were all recruitment consultants or estate agents so yeah, in 2009. I really after doing two years of these temp jobs, I really took a step back and thought about what I actually cared about. And I kept coming back to wildlife and nature, which I've been passionate about since as long as I can remember as a boy growing up on the west coast of Scotland, and that was it. I made up my mind, I had nothing to show for it or prove in terms of academic qualifications in you name it geography, biology, sustainability, whatever it was. So I went back to university to study for a degree in Natural and Environmental Sciences. And I started applying for jobs at the same time while I was there. And that's when I managed to get my foot in the door at a small ocean conservation nonprofit called Sea Web in 2010. And the rest is history. So that's how I kind of discovered my why I really went back to what I was passionate about, and decided that I had to make a career in that in some way and get my foot in the door. As for posts that I've written about sustainability kind of being out and regeneration being in I haven't written any of those to be deliberately controversial. They've all just been cases of publicly sharing, like what I'm thinking and publicly sharing the journey that we're on at Avery and Brown. So the term regenerative business has been around for years, but I'd never heard of it when I first shared it in early 2021 in a LinkedIn post, and perhaps unsurprisingly, loads of other people hadn't heard of it, either. So the post just seemed to really resonate. And in a nutshell, I'd written about how I didn't think that sustainable business was enough anymore. And that if we listen to the climate scientists, which of course we should do, it's way too late in the day for that, we don't just need businesses to be less bad, we need them to do more good. So for me, no matter what the academic definitions of regenerative business might be, mine was, and still is that we want to be a business which gives back more to society and the planet than it takes. And I think it's that simplicity of message which led to my original posts resonating with so many people.

Katherine Ann Byam 6:41
Yeah, that absolutely reminds me of net positive by Andrew Winston and Paul Polman, I don't know if you've read the book. But the book has just given me so much in terms of insight into how we need to be thinking, how all big businesses need to be thinking. And to be honest, most aren't there yet, many are trying and they're making progress, but most are not there yet. And that's really a concern, because it comes down to that bit of a conflict that I also have, like, as I'm in the process of returning to traditional work (we'll talk about that later) but as I think about the companies that I go to, and as I interview with companies, they're on such different spectrums of where they are, I know that they're all trying to be better, which is why there's a potential role for me. I wouldn't go back if I didn't see a role in potential. And I know that we all need to help even the companies that we don't necessarily like the ones we think of greenwashing, etc, we need to help them do better. But it's still difficult if, therefull heart isn't there. So I wonder if I have the capacity to do the change management I need to do. So maybe if you can give some insight as to why this topic has become so huge and why it's such an important thing for marketing at the moment.

Russ Avery 7:56
Absolutely. Yeah. So quite simply, I just think it's the greatest issue of our time. So the climate crisis, and the associated crises which accompany it, including ecological collapse and increasing social inequality are without a doubt the greatest challenges that humanity has ever faced, and they permeate through every facet of life and business. And that, of course, includes marketing. And the reason sustainability is such a big marketing issue is because of the huge impact marketing and advertising has on people. And you know, people are central to the problem and must absolutely be central to the solution. So what people read, watch and hear every day has a profound effect on the way they behave, the actions they take the way they spend their money, etc. So marketing plays a vital role in how people not only understand but also how they react to the many facets of sustainability, whether that be choosing to buy so called sustainable goods and services, and we'll come on to that later when I talk about greenwash, or where and how they invest their money, for example. And so on the notes of greenwash we couldn't have this chat without raising it. As sustainability has become more trendy, we've witnessed an increasing prevalence of greenwash and for those who might not know greenwash is when brands use false misleading or unsubstantiated claims in their marketing and advertising. And I would say greenwashing is mostly deliberate. But sometimes it can be accidental, which raises a really interesting point about climate education and carbon literacy and that sort of thing. Because it's sometimes the case of people simply not knowing the facts, or how to talk accurately about something to do with sustainability. And I think we'll we'll revisit that later as well. And interestingly, one of my most popular posts on LinkedIn this year was about that nuance of language. And it went something along the lines of; you know, please remember that there's a huge difference between saying something is good for the environment, and saying something is less harmful to the environment, because there seems to now be an increasing number of cases of brands saying the former, when what they really mean is the latter. So you know, anyone listening to this, think about whether your product or service is actually good for the environment, eg whereby it helps restore it to actively benefit in some way? Or is it just that it's less damaging to the environment than other similar options on the market? You know, it sounds like a small thing. But that actually is a big thing. And, you know, thankfully, advertising and marketing campaigns can be shut down now for their use of greenwash if it gets reported. And we can talk about that a bit later on. But yeah, that that important distinction can save you a lot of time, money and general bother. And I guess, yeah, that for me is why sustainability or regeneration, those kind of catchphrases are so important in terms of marketing, it's all about behaviour. And how 7 billion people on the planet are acting, behaving spending their money and ultimately taking action or not.

Katherine Ann Byam 10:57
It's interesting what you say, because, well, one of the facts is that not 7 billion people are looking at these marketing campaigns. In fact, it's roughly maybe two and a half, maybe 3 billion. The rest are way below the poverty line and can't afford any of this stuff. Which, which brings me to some interesting ethical questions that I that I'd like to run past you. So my first one is this entrepreneurship is psychologically associated with creating this game changing business, these massive business models that transform everything, products and services or hybrids, but earning well while doing it. And that tends to be the focus, becoming the next unicorn. 1 billion in revenue. You know, getting this great valuation tends to be the goal for many people starting big businesses, and even for small businesses. It's about you know, getting that seven figures, etc. In your view, should we encourage the continuation of this thinking because I feel as if it's broken from the rest of the sustainability conversation? I mean, there is this part about carbon, but there's also this part about the social good. What are your thoughts on that?

Russ Avery 12:03
Such a great question, Katherine. So, of course, this is just my opinion, based on my own desires and drivers in life. But I honestly can't think of anything much worse than having an overarching goal of like wanting to be a billionaire. This ridiculous kind of culture of billionaire hustle has spread like wildfire since the dawn of social media. Even though most of what we see on there is totally fake. You know, unfortunately, we live in a world where people will literally rent supercars for the day, so they can take loads of photos of themselves with it for their Instagram profile to make others think that they're far wealthier and successful in their definition of success than they actually are. And you know, if that's not utterly mad, I really don't know what it is. But where it gets interesting is if purpose driven entrepreneurs want to get wealthy and build big businesses so that they can increase the positive impacts that they can make to people on the planet. In other words, by building a regenerative business, right, that really excites me. And that's the camp that I definitely fall into, you know, I don't have big desires for Avery & Brown to grow super, super quickly so that we can make seven, eight figures. I want to grow, you know, funnily enough sustainably and slowly and the right way for us. But I think we need to talk about cases like Patagonia because it happened so recently, Yvon Chouinard, the founder of Patagonia is an absolute sustainable business pioneer, as we all know, but recently, he announced that Earth was becoming you know, the major kind of shareholder of Patagonia and that billions of dollars will be put to, hopefully good causes by protecting the Earth's last wild spaces, which he cares so passionately about. It's a real case study of growing a business. And you know, there are people who are quick to shout down Patagonia, by the way, you know, using synthetic materials in its, in their clothing and stuff, but we need to celebrate progress not perfection, because you know, what is perfection anyway, so it's a real case study of how you can grow a huge, huge business with insane profits, but actually do something amazing with those profits. So your average billionaire would probably use that money to buy their next luxury yachts and their private jet and another house, etc. But there is a different way and it is out there. And we're seeing examples of this now and that that has to excite me because you know, we have to stay optimistic about these things and, and hopeful so I know a lot of great purpose driven entrepreneurs out there who are currently running small businesses like ours, but you know, one day these could be the next Yvon Chouinard's, which is super exciting, and what they're gonna do with their profits really excites me because they'll be trying to contribute to towards the Sustainable Development Goals ultimately and trying to make the world a better place instead of buying luxury material goods, which are just feeding the problem.

Katherine Ann Byam 15:05
Yeah, it definitely is complicated. Let's move to the second part of this question because it's in a way more marketing related. But when we look back into the history of marketing, as the Global Game Changing has become fundamentally since the 50s, roughly many link some of the greatest marketing campaigns with behaviours that haven't been good for the planet. So to give some examples, diamonds are forever. I saw the story on Netflix, and I was flabbergasted at how this campaign came about, and the selfishness that drove it and the success attack. I mean, it's still something that women desire for their weddings, which is just absolutely nuts for me, then when we look at things like Coca Cola, you know, you want to feel refreshed Coke is it. We saw people like Ronaldo push away the coke bottle when he's doing his conferences, etc. So with Coke, it's it's it's really about having this fizzy gas, sugary alternative to water. And it uses so much water as well, which is such a big challenge for us right now. So how can we do better? How can we really move this along? You know, we even had the depiction of advertising we saw in Mad Men, you know, the tobacco lobby and things like this, what role does marketing have to play in some of the inequality and health challenges that we currently face? In your view? And how can we do better?

Russ Avery 16:24
Yeah, so there's absolutely no doubt about it. Historically, marketing and advertising has been a massive part of the problem. There's just no, no two ways about it. You've already mentioned some of them, Katherine, in your question there. But the obvious ones would be tobacco, literally used to be advertised as a health benefit. So a cigarette a day keeps the doctor away and stuff like that. Alcohol, of course, which continues to this day, but is more regulated than it used to be, gambling. And then the big one for me would, of course, be overconsumption, marketing has played a direct role in the terrible inequalities in the world, and the environmental degradation of the planet, because it has forced us albeit sometimes subliminally, to buy crap that we don't want, need, or is even bad for our health. I mean, imagine, it sounds crazy, when you actually take a step back to think about it, doesn't it that we will actively buy things and consume things, which we know are bad for us. But of course, we've seen a cool advert or a great marketing campaign for it, and it makes us desire that thing. So 100%, marketing has played a massive role in, in the global inequality in health challenges that we face. And again, where it gets interesting for me is how it now can and must be part of the solution. And I mentioned earlier about how we can achieve that by working on positive campaigns, which are honest and authentic and which don't greenwash, to educate people.

Katherine Ann Byam 18:02
So let's move to a more positive note, shall we tell us about some of those campaigns you are currently working on, or have worked on in the past that are making a difference to what marketing can become?

Russ Avery 18:13
Absolutely, as I was saying, the reason I'm excited about the role that marketing can play in the future and being part of the solution to all these challenges we face, is because of the reach and the impact that it can have when done correctly. So what really excites me are marketing campaigns, which drive education, which share best practices, and which ultimately inspire and empower their audiences to maybe ask the right questions, but ultimately also start taking action and start taking positive action. That's really exciting. An example of a campaign that we've worked on in the past is the hashtag tackle the crisis campaign, that was our kind of biggest campaign today in terms of the global reach that we had. So it was done on behalf of our client; Elodie. And it was so simple, which is probably why it was so effective. And it was a user generated campaign, which encouraged people to promote brands and individuals which are providing planet positive solutions, and also to share positive and uplifting environmental news. And it had the very simple aim of helping to tackle the climate crisis by promoting those positive solutions, but also keep people's climate anxiety at bay. So really tackling those two important issues at once because climate anxiety is a real issue now, especially for those who work in sustainability, but also just for the general public who are clued up about the issues. So it was a campaign which simultaneously educated, promoted better alternatives and better options, whether it was sustainable and ethical goods or services, shared positive environmental news of which there is loads around, but we forget that because obviously If we're glued to the media, then we're just fed the deluge of doom and gloom news stories about how bad the state of the world is, which is true, but there needs to be some balance there. So we were encouraging people to promote and share these positive environmental news stories which they'd been hearing about or which they knew about themselves, of which there are 1000s. Because there are so many good people out there trying to do good things. And even the kind of more global positive news stories about the reintroduction of species or species which have recovered due to protected areas and stuff can get really bumped down the newspapers and the, you know, the news feeds, so they needed to be brought to the fore. That was a really good example of a marketing campaign with a really hugely positive impact. And it's still kind of going on to this day, because the beauty of the user generated aspects of the campaign is that people are just using the hashtags tackle the crisis whenever they share something positive.

Katherine Ann Byam 20:56
Yeah, I get that. I'm going to ask you a question that I didn't prepare you for. So sorry about that. But Tik Tok, so we talk about education as being essential to the sustainability movement. And in a way Tik Tok has been well, quite fundamental in the education of our youth, today with very short videos, with social justice topics, I think they do very, very well. I don't think they do as well on environmental topics. What are your thoughts about how we can capitalise on this massively growing, exciting, medium to communicate the best messages for youth?

Russ Avery 21:37
Wow, amazing question. So quite timely, as well. So Avery & Brown, we're brand new to Tik Tok, we quite literally joined it about two weeks ago, I think, and I'm very new to it personally as well. And the reason that we decided to go on to Tik Tok, and investigate it and be on there as a brand is simply because of everything you've just said about the number of people that are being reached on there. And that we knew that there was some good creators on Tik Tok, who were having success in terms of their reach, like views and engagement, who are talking about sustainability related issues. So we thought, well, we absolutely need to be on there and trial it for us. And I think the answer to your question in terms of how we can leverage it, is we need to be where the people are. So more brands like us need to at least investigate these new channels, which are popping up to see if they're viable channels and mediums for us to share our messages, so that we can reach more people who care. And yeah, it's interesting, we've shared I think, I think you'll find three videos on the Avery & Brown Tik Tok page at the moment, but purely in terms of the views that they've had, they're much higher than when we shared them on LinkedIn, and Instagram, which is really interesting. So we're definitely going to stay on Tik Tok in the short term. And where it's going to be interesting for us is sharing more of our messages about educating people about the climate crisis and sustainability and the role that both individuals and businesses can play in tackling it and see, see what happens. If we start getting incredible views and engagement there, then we'll know that it's a really good channel to reach maybe beyond the echo chamber that we, that you get stuck with, particularly on LinkedIn, for example, I don't know if you find this, Katherine. But while we can get good engagement on our LinkedIn posts, and I've been on LinkedIn for years, and building up a personal brand and publishing content, almost daily, as you know, you still see the same people like liking, commenting and engaging and it feels really difficult to reach beyond that echo chamber. Otherwise, we're all just talking to each other about the stuff we already know about, right. I think new channels like Tik Tok, which I know isn't that new anymore, and they'll be something else soon. I'm sure. I think we are we need to explore these for for the benefit of the bigger picture.

Katherine Ann Byam 24:00
Yeah. And it brings me to another question that they didn't tell you about. But it's kind of around the direction of Facebook at the moment and the metaverse. And I'm not sold on it. I think Mark is, but I don't know if the rest of the world is. And I don't know if it's actually a good place for us to start thinking about how we would prepare a strategy for for that type of reality. What are your thoughts?

Russ Avery 24:26
Yeah, I mean, I'm happy to say hands up. I know, almost nothing about it, because it personally just doesn't interest me that much. I get it. But the concepts for me of yeah, this virtual reality world that we can all kind of interact with each other in is just lost on me as someone who wants to protect, you know, what's right outside there, like in the real world. So there will be incredible use cases for the metaverse, which I don't know about because I'm not the person to talk to about that. That I'm sure will be of benefit to certain sectors and demographics. But I don't know what they are. And I'm just far more concerned like you are Katherine with the real world and doing whatever we can to protect it and solve the issues that we know about which are out there. Yeah, that's an interesting one. And I'm sure Mark's got other ideas. But hey, get him on the show next, right.

Katherine Ann Byam 25:23
Yeah, if only, you know, it's interesting and it's my final comments on this topic, but my godson, so I don't have kids, but my godson spends a lot of time with his friends playing fortnite, or things like this. So I see that it has relevance, especially for this generation, at this certain age where, you know, the pandemic happened, and they spent a lot of time in their houses not being able to see their friends. They've sort of built this relationship and this whole new world playing games online. And I see that this generation that's coming up now could potentially be that Metaverse generation, right, they could be the ones who you know, really get something from spending time with their friends in these kinds of virtual reality situations, you know, like Ready Player One, stuff like that. So I can see it becoming a thing. But the question is, will we get there? Will we even get there? And that's the problem that we need to solve first. Right. So on that topic, I'm going to ask you now should marketing be regulated in your view? Yeah.

Russ Avery 26:18
So here in the UK, like fortunately, all marketing and advertising must be an accurate description of the product or service. It should be truthful, honest, and socially responsible. And you can't include false or deceptive messages or leave out any important information. So at least we've got a head start on what I'm sure the cases in other countries. And in the context of our conversation today around sustainability, and regenerative business practices and marketing, there's something called the Green Claims Code now, which is great, because everyone must now ensure that any environmental claims on goods and services don't mislead customers, and that they can be substantiated, which you'll remember from when we talked about greenwash earlier. So it's pretty simple, actually, all claims must be truthful and accurate, and clear and unambiguous. And that is such a wonderful thing. Because on LinkedIn alone, I've been seeing more and more people sharing posts about adverts, which they've adverts in marketing campaigns, which they've spotted where they've questioned it. And it's led to amazing discussions in the comments. And then more often than not, we've also seen that actually, the Advertising Standards Authority have stepped in and the green claims code has been brought into effect and the marketing campaign or the the advertising campaign has been has been shut down. And that's brilliant. Fortunately, consumers are becoming much more savvy to greenwash and much more capable of spotting it or at least questioning it, which is the first part of that education. And then, you know, that's one of the ways social media really comes into its own, in a good way, is being able to share that and ask your your network and your audience what they think, or if in Indeed, it is illegal and should be taken down and it leads to a great discussion. And it helps educate others, because they go oh, yeah, I didn't really think about that. But that is, you know, how did they get away with that? That's really positive, in my opinion. And I'm really glad that we're seeing these, these greenwashing campaigns being shut down. Because remember, more often than not, they are deliberate, because they're being done by the bigger firms which know exactly what they're doing. And they are trying to mislead us. And then there are a few instances where it's a really interesting grey area, because the company the brand, hasn't done it deliberately, it's just been the kind of slight nuance of language. And that's where they need expertise of sustainable marketers, and people who are clued up on greenwash and what you can and can't say, to help them with their campaigns. So you know, we exist to help our clients do that. And we don't, we don't have to do it that often because we're more brand consultancy focused. But we do help run marketing campaigns as well, of course, and so it's something that we need to be acutely aware of in the language that we use on behalf of our clients to make sure that their compliant.

Katherine Ann Byam 29:09
Wonderful, thank you for sharing. And what I'd love to do now is to take advantage of your knowledge. And have you share sort of three foundational approaches perhaps, that you use when preparing a branding or marketing campaign for, a for purpose brand. So to help our listeners who might be either interested in social media or doing their own small businesses that are purpose led?

Russ Avery 29:35
Absolutely. Number one would have to be sticking to your why and your purpose. And it sounds obvious, but it seems to be really easy to forget. So that's why it has to be my number one tip there. So assuming that your brand has completed some comprehensive brand strategy work and your purpose driven business, which knows your why and your purpose, which again, sounds obvious, but we'll talk a bit about that later. You have to make sure that any campaign that you're doing harks back to your why and your purpose so that it has not only the right impact for your audience, but the right impact for you. Which leads me on to my second one, which is staying true to your vision and your values. So what are you actually trying to achieve both as a business and with this campaign? Is the campaign helping you to achieve your vision? And by staying true to your values, I mean, does the campaign have the right tone of voice and the right values, which you talk about on your website, which we've seen instances of the campaign, maybe using slightly different language, which puts, sets your brand in a different light than the way you talk about yourself on the about page, when you talk about your values and your vision and stuff, you really want to make sure that they're aligned, so that the campaign looks like it is actually, from your brand, how you talk about yourself, and that can be executed in multiple different ways. So I mentioned tone of voice there, here's your overall branding. And there's reflecting the language that you use in your purpose statement and your vision statement and stuff. And this is completely applicable to any brands, not just a for purpose brand, but don't forget to put yourself in your audience's shoes. So you've got to really think; how is this campaign going to be seen or heard, when I'm actually the audience when I'm reading that social media post when I'm looking at that billboard. And, you know, perhaps I'd argue that that is even more important for purpose brands, because of the positive impacts that that could go on to have because actually, it's not a campaign by Coca Cola. It's a campaign by a for purpose brand, which is probably trying to achieve something really positive in the world. Maybe that's the argument for saying that, harking back to your purpose, your vision, your values, and putting yourself in your audience's shoes is even more important for, for purpose brands, because of the positive impacts that you're trying to create.

Katherine Ann Byam 31:56
What advice would you give to green eco sustainable regenerative startups that are entering the marketplace? Now? Do you feel like it's too crowded?

Russ Avery 32:04
That's a really interesting one about whether I feel it's too crowded or not, I don't feel it's too crowded with exactly the right kind of brands that we need, I think there's still a huge opportunity out there for the really amazing purpose driven ones who are going to be, you know, the next big purpose driven companies of tomorrow. There are however, a lot of sustainable in inverted commas brands popping up. But this is a whole nother answer. But there are too many of them which, like clearly jumping on the bandwagon a bit. And they've just put the word sustainable and sustainability in some of their copy. But when you when you scratch the surface and dig a little deeper, they're nothing of the sort in terms of the way that they operate and stuff. So unfortunately, that is just something which happens whenever anything becomes trendy. And let's face it, sustainability is becoming trendy, which is why more of these brands are popping up. Because these days you people feel like you need to be seen to be doing something. So if their business which isn't doing something, some of them will just lie about it and drop in a few words here in there for the advice I'd give to green eco sustainable regenerative startups entering the marketplace, now, if you focus on your brand strategy at a deep level, I promise you, you will instantly set yourselves apart from 99% of your competition, it can seem really obvious that if you are a green eco or sustainable startup, purpose is something which is completely fundamental to your business. But actually true purpose is obviously more than skin deep. So whether you're a startup or an established business, a rock solid brand strategy is an essential foundation of any great sustainable brands. And it's about knowing yourself at a really deep level, and answering lots of key questions about your purpose, your vision, your mission, because you can be a sustainable startup, which knows what its end goal is, but it hasn't answered enough questions about itself and the way it's going to operate, if that makes sense. So they know that they want to achieve something good in the world through what they're selling, whether that be a product or service, but actually they haven't paid much attention to their own brand strategy, which is about realising your potential and exploring what's possible. So getting to know yourself and your priorities inside out, who exactly you're talking to, so really niching down on who your audience is, who else is talking out there, that's obviously your competition, and that brand strategy stage can extend as far as your budget allows, but ultimately, the more you can afford to spend on it in those early days, the better your foundation for growth is going to be and you'll really help set yourself up for for that long term success. So that's why we have such a thorough four stage approach. Three, three of those stages are foundational groundwork we do before we start the actual marketing. So all the campaigns and the general or ongoing marketing activities are all in what we call stage four, which is execute. But our stages one, two and three are doing a huge amount of groundwork getting under the bonnet of the business and understanding it at the deepest level possible working with them on their purpose, vision, values, tone of voice, etc, brand identity before they go and jump ahead and do that. And that's what's helping our clients to kind of see success and grow and not feel like they've plateaued or growing too quickly by skipping these crucial steps that I think every business needs to focus on. But, again, I'm biassed, but I'd say it's even more important for the kind of planet positive brands that we're looking to work with.

Katherine Ann Byam 35:39
Wonderful Russ, this has been an insightful session. I've loved our conversation, can you share with my listeners how they can get in touch with you?

Russ Avery 35:46
Sure. Thank you so much, Katherine, people please feel free to connect with me on LinkedIn. You'll find me on LinkedIn just by searching for Russ Avery, our website's Avery & Brown.com. And you can find us on LinkedIn, Instagram and TikTok. Now just using the handle at Avery&Brown,

Katherine Ann Byam 36:03
Perfect thanks so much.

Russ Avery 36:04
Thanks, Katherine.

Katherine Ann Byam 36:08
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