About this Episode

Hello, everyone, and welcome to today's
show. This is the sustainability puzzle. And my guest is Alice Schmidt.
We are streaming live for the courageous career club and on LinkedIn. We're also recording this for my podcast where Ideas Launch, the podcast for the sustainable innovator.  Thank you all for joining us.

And we're gonna get into the session. So let me introduce a bit about Alice.

Alice is an advisor and an advocate and an author on global sustainability and social transformation, and she's passionate about gathering, collating and distilling deep insights on global systemic challenges and solutions regarding environmental and economic sustainability, as well as social justice.

So she has a big agenda. And in her latest book, The sustainability puzzle, which she co authored, together with her friend, Claudia Winkler, she discusses how systems thinking circularity and climate action, as well as social transformation can improve health, wealth and wellbeing for all.

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Episode Transcript

Katherine Ann Byam  0:03  

 This is a big challenge. We've, we've now just come out of cop 26. And we've had all of these challenges going back and forth on those countries that are struggling. And it's really interesting what you're doing. So Alice, welcome. Welcome to the show.

Alice Schmidt  2:01  

Well, thank you. Hi, Katherine. Really good to speak to you today.

Katherine Ann Byam  2:04  

I wanted to start by sort of acknowledging the breadth and depth of your experiences across cultures and across geographies. And having started your academic life in business and Communication Studies, what first prompted your interest in social impact work? First of all, of all the things that you're interested in?

Alice Schmidt  2:23 

Yeah, so a great question, let me go really far back, because it's actually affected the first, you know, children always asked what they want to become right when they grew up. And for me, when I said, I want to become an author, and I want to write a book to save the world. And I'm clearly not saying I've reached it, but just as this is to demonstrate that this has been within me. So you know, as a child, I found clubs to save the environment and to protect the environment and to help sort of socially disadvantaged people. And, um, you know, I was, I was part of the scouts movement. And I do think now with hindsight, that this kind of influenced my values. And my thinking is sort of, you know, this cherishing nature and all of that and taking responsibility for your actions.

But professionally, it came when I was working with Coca Cola and also Henkel, another fast moving consumer goods company, at the time, based in Vienna, but focusing on the Central and Eastern European markets. And it was a long time ago, that was about 20 years ago, I just came out of University and finished my business degree. And I remember thinking when I worked at Coke, no kind of dream for a lot of young marketers thinking, do I really want to focus on helping one company sell more of an unhealthy, carbonated soft drink? or would I rather use his energy, my skills to sell something that you know, is actually perhaps, you know, saving the wild, I had a similar experience with the launch of a dishwasher, dishwashing detergent in Central Eastern Europe, which at the time was quite poor, and a lot of people didn't even have enough money to buy, you know, sort of detergent at all right? They had to make soap by themselves.

And that really then drove me into this direction of social impact, sustainable development, initially, more on the social side, and then bringing back the business sort of link as well as engaging with climate issues because I really think it's this bigger picture for me sustainability is really people planet and profits.

Katherine Ann Byam  4:35  

Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think my experiences in life have taken me on a quite similar journey for two years so I worked in internal audit for a huge multinational in a controversial industry. And I had the opportunity to travel the world as well and experience deeply and firsthand the plight of many societies of many communities, and how innovative they are. Coming up with solutions that are frugal. And, you know, I, I've also seen how the crisis of geopolitics has sort of ravaged the environment. Right? And how has that work across cultures and disciplines benefited your work on understanding and, and sort of tackling complex and integrated system challenges? 

Alice Schmidt  5:23  

Yeah so I mean, I have indeed written in about 30 countries on four different continents. And that was very much my choice. At the time, there wasn't this trade off that we discussed earlier about climate at least, you know, your carbon footprint in terms of flying around so that I neglected at the time blissfully, I was blissfully ignorant of it. And, I was clearly driven by this insert that the more I see, the more I understand, but also the more I know what I don't know. Yeah. And, I quickly recognise that solutions or sort of activities, actions, programmes projects that seem like solutions can actually make things much worse, if they're not sort of embedded in a bigger picture kind of frame just to give an example.

And students because I use this because students of mine brought this up yesterday. And you know, the famous brands toms, right, the shoes, right? That don't donate a pair for each pair that you buy. And, and if you sort of just parachute into a developing country, and you see oh, there's a few children without shoes, you might think, Okay, I have a solution, right. But then if you see him out and somehow look a bit, sort of deeper and more broad, broadly, you find that actually, it's not the shoes, perhaps at MIT. And actually, if you give away shoes, you might destroy local industry, right? And this is not to bash Tom's as a company. To their credit, they actually think about these issues and do research to understand the impact.

But I mentioned this also, because we see, you know, a lot of talk about electric mobility at the moment. But as long as this electricity, the power that you power your car with does not come from renewable sources, it's not particularly sustainable. And that let you know, leaving aside all the issues around batteries, etc. And so yes, this, this, this, for me, also, on a personal level, these trips to a lot of developing countries, other cultures more broadly, have always been very eye opening, very humbling. And they've been very, extremely useful reminders of how lucky I am, how privileged I am. And have been there for allowing me to really focus on what matters, rather than you know, winching about this and whining about that. So absolutely important in this experience. Yeah.

Katherine Ann Byam  7:58  

Yeah, it's interesting, you touched on something that I'd love to explore a little bit, if you don't mean. So it's, it's around this topic of transitioning to electric cars. There's so much baggage behind this transition for me, because at the moment, I'm driving a car that's not fit for the future. I know this. But at the same time, I don't want to commit another act of criminal injustice against the climate, by purchasing a car that's going to extract more materials, rather than taking my existing car and converting it. Because if I were to sell my car, someone else is going to drive it. So I haven't solved the problem, I have not solved the problem of climate change by selling my car. So if I scrap my car and waste the asset, right, so for me, I wish the solution that people would be coming up with and I do hope to hear from BMW soon about this. But I want them to retrofit my old car. You know, and I guess the question is, how do we tackle that?

Alice Schmidt  9:00  

So I mean, I think you're touching on a lot of different things. And some go into direction of circularity. And actually, if you resold your car to someone who would otherwise buy a new one, right? Yeah, that would help given that you as long as you didn't buy a new car, and perhaps went into car sharing, right? Because I think it's not so much about the car, it's about mobility, again, sort of this need to zoom out right, but we also stress in the book a lot. And look at this bigger picture. And in this case, it's mobility and seeing how we can create Win win wins, right for ourselves, for the planet. So for the environment, the natural environment, and for people and cars are a great example because of course they pollute right? Some people love them and think of them as very beautiful but you know, having tons of cars sitting on our sidewalks on our roads, right?

Instead of having greenery and forests in our urban environments is Not particularly appealing, we've just become so used to it that we don't question this. And it's, of course, what I think is interesting in terms of the electric mobility movement is that, by and large, this is something where we have policy and agreement. It's become a political force. Yeah. So it's not one of these things. And so giving people an alternative, still being able to sort of own a car, if they must, is already an achievement, I think, yeah, but it definitely does matter where this comes from for your car personally. And I mean, yeah, if you could go without a car or car sharing, I think that would be a deal. If your car is sort of not too old, it might actually be much more economical, and also better for the environment to continue driving it right for a while, if it's too old, I have this super old car. And I'm told actually, that it's, it would be better to go electric to actually, you know, sell it, but driving. For me, it's really bad. Do I need this car? And I hope the answer is no.

Katherine Ann Byam  11:12  

Yeah, no, I think that's a good way to reflect on it. But I do still want the manufacturers of these vehicles that are more polluting, to take some sort of circular action to sort of help us write help. I would much prefer to have my car retrofitted and pay for that, than to extract materials again.

Alice Schmidt  11:32  

Yeah. And that's true. I mean, with cars at the moment, you can't really retrofit right with buildings, you can do that in an economical way. Yeah. But of course, some of the big car firms like BMW are actually also jumping on the sharing bandwagon. Yeah. And I think this is perhaps their biggest contribution they can make.

Katherine Ann Byam  11:50  

Yeah, so I'm going to take a quick pivot to the comments and just flash them through. So we have some good wishes from Sean. Thank you very much, Sean. And we have Isabel saying hello to both of us. Hi, Great that you joined us. And Mary Lou is asking me a question. So I'm facing the same mobility dilemma. Katherine, I sold my car and for now, I am managing without, but at some point in the future, I may need a new one. And I'm not convinced about electric vehicles yet.

Alice Schmidt  12:20  

Go for car sharing. That would be my current really going without occurring.

Katherine Ann Byam  12:26  

Right. Yeah, exactly. And, you know,

Alice Schmidt  12:29  

also a trend we're seeing I mean, cities and mayors around the world. But that's not the end of the world. But some cities are really going this direction. And it's also about making cities more pleasant, more sustainable, more livable for the 50%. Right of the world population that's already living in them.

Katherine Ann Byam  12:48  

Yes, exactly. And, look, I think there's so many important things that I think people need a space to kind of ask questions as well, because as your book indicates, it's a puzzle and it's complex. And we need support, we need support to make the right decisions, instead of everyone going off doing what they think is best, which might actually be causing more problems. Right. So it's an interesting debate for sure. Yeah, so let's, let's talk.

Alice Schmidt  13:16  

A lot of there's a lot of well-intentioned projects and companies out there and players out there, but you know, well, meaning well-intentioned doesn't always mean good.

Katherine Ann Byam  13:28  

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So let's move to a few concepts in your book that I think listeners will find fascinating. So I wanted to start with this happiness beyond GDP. And I've been following what's happening in the Greek reshuffle and the Greek pause as some, some people call it, post-COVID. And there's definitely a heightened level of interest for many, for many people to design more holistic, healthy lives and get more from their careers, more purpose from their careers. So tell us about your thoughts on how to facilitate change in the direction of happiness beyond GDP.

Alice Schmidt  14:06  

Yeah, so first of all, it's true that people care and they don't want to go back to life before COVID. Right. I mean, there were quite a lot of studies on this last year, I think about 80%. So it's zero, they said that they actually wanted to go back to a more sort of sustainable life. Right. And I think this is partly a reflection of the pandemic, having forced us to think about what makes us happy. What does wellbeing mean for us as individuals, but also what does progress mean for us as societies as countries, right, and there have been, I mean, this is not completely new, and there have been a lot of very sort of big, well recognised institutions, global institutions, but also individual mayors again, yes, city governments trying to shape the target setting and policies in a way that don't just maximise the GDP, right?

Because the GDP has been the main indicator that is used around the world, to sort of indicating progress. Yeah, that's the measure we have. I mean, it doesn't actually measure progress. It measures economic output, right. And it misses all the voluntary work that our societies depend on. And it goes up when we see disasters, floods, Harrigan forest fires, right. So it's not a measure of progress. And even you know, the guy, that cannot be Simon Kuznets, who invented it, almost 100 years ago, basically said, This is not about measuring societal progress, but somehow our mindsets are so adapted to this thinking that, that it's very hard for us to move up. Having said that, a lot is happening.

 And I think a lot of people start to, to value what matters to appreciate what matters companies and NGOs, but particularly as of companies are still are starting to track the social impact, the environmental footprint, and what sort of the newest, and to me, also most exciting trend is that we're getting towards a system, we're tiptoeing towards a system, where we account for costs, as they truly are, which means we valuing the services the ecosystem is providing for us, right through wood, or food or natural medicine, fibres, whatever. But also, services like climate regulation, or water filtration, maybe we never think about this, but I'm not saying I'm definitely not saying give these things a price. But I'm saying let's value these things. Let's value clean air, air pollution kills 20,000 people a day.

That's a sort of a tragedy, right for individuals, for families, for societies, but it also comes with an economic cost. Yeah. And I think it's really important that we start talking about these costs more and more. And because that's just how we think right in our world, we think in monetary terms, and that's why I think translating negative impacts into what I call the cost of unsustainability is really helpful. But of course, we don't want to communicate negatively, right? In fact, a book is very much about optimism, and about picking people up where they are, yeah. Not really killing anyone, because they have ignored sustainability. You know, until recently, I'm not laughing at any questions, obviously, but also taking seriously the efforts they are making and trying to work with them to see how they can make more efforts.

How could they perhaps, you know, increase their impact. And, and and, yeah, so I think that this is partly also for people to really appreciate what they have and what they haven't thought about before such as clean air. Right? I mean, our mental health and again, this is measurable, our measurable, our mental health improves significantly, if we live in areas where there are sufficient trees. Yeah, it's the same trees that sort of decrease this famous heat island effect, and make people die from excessive heat, right. But it's also a mental health benefit. That's really important, particularly now in these times, right when a lot of people are suffering through the pandemic. Yeah, no,

Katherine Ann Byam  18:55  

That's absolutely true. And I wanted to touch on something and I didn't tell you about this before, but we'll talk about it anyway. Which is this idea of donut economics. So I recently discovered Kate Raworths' work. I hadn't heard about it before. Remarkably, even though I've been in this space for a while, and there's a lot of I'm following her Twitter account where you know, she's building communities around trying to bring these ideas of living within the doughnut to life if you want to perhaps talk a bit about that maybe explain the concept to my listeners as well and talk about your perspective on how we can do that.

Alice Schmidt  19:32  

Yeah, so I fully agree can she has done great work and I think it's encouraging that her book is also really, and her ideas and her thinking have really sort of gathered very widespread attention. So the doughnut essentially tries to reconcile both the environmental and to social, the global social injustice, aspects of sustainability. Yeah, bookkeeping within the donut hole, we all know what a donut looks like.

And make sure that we don't overstretch our sort of planet services. Yeah, then that is the natural environment, but we still provide a sufficient standard of living for all people in the world, right? I mean, that's also why we wait for us, this is really important, because we also talk about our book where the subtitle is health, wealth and wellbeing for all. I think this is so important, right? People like you, and me, you've been to a lot of places to see this, these enormous disparities, right, even within one country within one city.

Right. And I think we'll understand this, but not everyone has had the chance to understand this. And so. And I, what I like about the donut economics is that it's also a concept that's now being used by governments, including city governments. I don't know, for some reason we keep coming back to urbanism and cities today, and like Berlin, or Amsterdam, right, that are really trying to use this sort of framework, because it resonates with people. Yeah.

Katherine Ann Byam  21:10  

Yeah. It is easier to grasp for sure.

Alice Schmidt  21:14  

And so just one thing that comes to mind here, is this, this idea, or this insight, that there are only developing countries out there that are not any developed countries that are economically developed countries, but there aren't any countries that are where we need to be environmentally in terms of environmental protection. Yeah. Or providing a sort of social justice to everyone.

Yeah. And, I think David Attenborough also said this in his famous cop speech recently, which was brilliant, by the way, so I recommend everyone out there to watch it for seven minutes, definitely worth your time. And it's also about sort of, you know, learning from that inverted commas developing world, right, because a lot of what people in these places do is exactly what we need today. Think about circularity, you know, you repair things, sharing things, not throwing them away. And that to come full circle with Acade worth, she also said, on a finite planet, there is no way you can throw things away. And that's another one I love.

Katherine Ann Byam  22:34  

Yes, absolutely. Now, yes. All right. And I think the more that we have examples of countries embracing this, you're right, it's going to set a new trend as to what it really means to be an evolved society. And of course, we have other competing things that are coming into the sort of forefront now with digital transformation. And, you know, Facebook and Electabuzz, I'm not going to ask you to answer questions about that, don't worry, but it's one of the things that is now part of the whole complexity of how we redesign better for the future.

So I want to pivot now to cop 26. And there have been some commitments made around me being around reforestation, etc. But there have also been some sort of COP outs, so to speak, forgive the pun. But you know, talking about reducing coal, as opposed to eliminating the use of coal, and things like that. So I guess which agreements have been the most encouraging for you? And how has caught 26 done enough, in your view, to solve the problems that we face?

Alice Schmidt  23:48  

Yeah, so um, I guess I won't give you the short or the long answer, but something in the middle. I mean, one thing I think we need to consider is that before the cup after the cup is before the cup, yes, there's going to be another one next year, and it's going to be in Africa, which is great. I think Egypt if I'm not mistaken. And I do think that it has served to really get a lot of global attention. I don't think that's just me, you know, because I'm in my little bit saving the world kind of bubble. I do think there's been more attention to the cop and awareness, pressure also from civil society, I think is key.

Yeah. What it hasn't done is really come out with this new big agreement that everybody subscribed to. Yeah, there's a text, a communique that came out at the end and which included some very encouraging text around phasing out fossil fuels. There was this debate about phasing out  fossil fuels. And there was also the, the, what was it there? Yeah, phasing out fossil fuels. And then the coal that you mentioned specifically, right? Because coal is the worst, the most polluting fossil fuel. And but what we've seen from a governance perspective is little blocks emerging, right?

So a few countries, you know, going for methane are now this another few countries for forest, etc. And I don't know if this is a good thing or a bad thing, right? Because it could become very easy now for countries to say, well, actually, you know, China didn't sign up. So why would I need to? And that brings me Of course, another really important point. I mean, I think one of the face savers, if that's the word for COP, was this quiet last minute agreement between or at least Joint Declaration between America the United States and China? Yes. Because in the end, it will come down to that. Right. Are they going to work together? And so I think there's a, you know, there are some promising signs. But, yeah, we're not there yet.

 And finally, perhaps, because one of the celebrated achievements, I think, was Brazil, among others agreeing to help defer deforestation relatively soon. And that is bread and butter, it's not going to help us that much in terms of climate change. Right. I mean, forests are important for biodiversity, for livelihoods for you know, we talked about trees already before trees in urban areas anyway. And I think, and, yeah, so we need to, we need to take everything that's come out of the cup with a pinch of salt.

 And keep in mind that these are just commitments. Yeah. So this is not implemented yet, and the most beautiful policy is worth nothing if it's not implemented, actually. Yeah, so just to finish, I think we might actually need to focus more. And we see this as a trend right to resort to climate litigation. And that brings me back to Brazil and now, right, there's some action against him. And companies are starting to fear that and I think this is an act for which my activist heart tells me this is a really good sign as well.

Katherine Ann Byam  27:24  

Yeah, yeah. Now this is great. So I want to close with the final question, which is, actions we can all take. So what are the sort of first steps that you would recommend people take at the household level? I mean, before we actually went live, we had a conversation about, about the whole topic of travel.

So I'm gonna let you take the floor in this one, because, for me, particularly travel is one of the one I would call the guilty pleasures that I'd love to still have. I haven't travelled since the pandemic began. But it's something that for me has transformed my understanding of complexity. It's transformed my approach to the world, and therefore it has been hugely beneficial. At the same time, it's wrapped up in a huge carbon footprint bet.

Alice Schmidt  28:11  

I hear you, I find that really hard as well, myself. I try to be principled, but I don't think I will always be able to write. And, I mean, again, travelling with mobility personally, I love long train ride, so I don't mind going between Ghana and Brussels for 13 hours. You know, I like how this soul travels with me and my soul travels with me. And I'm not sort of parachuting into a new place. But of course, there aren't the trains that are a thing in itself in Europe, and there needs to be a much more improvement but do but still do take trains.

Yeah, I think a very important message is to use public transport. eat less meat or no meat, and insulate your home. Yeah, that's another sort of big lever lever. And particularly also buy only what you love. Yeah. Even if it's more expensive, invest money, invest in quality, buy something you really love, and you're gonna be wanting to repair in case it breaks and that you will want to refurbish and that you will want to perhaps trade against something else as a friend Sir.

 So this circularity I think is also really something can be with and I'd like to mention also that in the book, the sustainability pamphlet, we really we deliberately included sketch notes for each chapter there which summarise the main sort of the main puzzle piece like circularity, climate action, which we're not talking about. And in each of these sort of puzzle pieces, we tell people what they can do as individuals, what they can do, you know, as representatives, companies, and what they can do as governments because I think it's really important and it's also important to, for people to understand That no matter what they do, it can have an impact.

Yeah. And it's not just about what you buy and what you do and which services you access or consume. It's very much also about how you take others with you, right? Your friends, your peers, but also your colleagues influence you at an organisational level. Yeah. So lots you can do and I hope you find more inspiration in the book. I

Katherine Ann Byam  30:28  

I loved your tips, particularly about buying something that you really love, even if it's expensive, and making sure it's something that you want to repay. I think that's my main one. Huge takeaway. So thank you so much for joining me today, Alice. And thanks to all of you who've listened and do give us your comments and feedback. And do get a copy of the sustainability puzzle if you haven't already. Thanks so much for joining us today.

Alice Schmidt  30:51  

Wonderful, thank you so much, Catherine and to everyone else here and keep in touch, stay in touch, get in touch.

Katherine Ann Byam  30:58  

Absolutely. Season Four of where radius launch was brought to you today by Katherine Ann Byam business resilience and strategy consulting services. Catherine provides business assessments and strategic support to help guide your business toward a netzero future. Get in touch with Katherine Ann Byam on LinkedIn

About this Episode

My next Guest is Shane Ward - a regenerative land use advisor, communicator and the founder of Action Ecology.

Shane brings an international perspective, scientific rigour and pragmatic approach to connecting people with the right knowledge, drawn from both innovative ‘on-the-ground’ practitioners and the latest research.

Passionate about sustainable food systems, ecosystem restoration, as well as plant, soil & microbial ecology, Shane also works more broadly to engage people with visioning a better way forwards for humanity’s approach to energy, economy and agriculture - re-partnering with natural systems - so we might provide a chance for future generations to thrive on this planet.

We discussed how we can secure the future of our food supply using natural systems as a guide.

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Episode Transcript

Katherine Ann Byam  0:01  

Hi, Shane, and welcome to the show.

Shane Ward  0:04  

Thanks for having me, Katherine. 

Shane Ward  0:05  

It's really great to have someone with your experience here to share with us the importance of regeneration and what it means to our survival. My first question is, What's wrong with the way we grow food and the way we raise livestock today? 

Shane Ward  1:40  

That is a great question and it's a huge topic. So it's simply a case of counting some things and ignoring others. So the claims that it's needed to feed the world if I'm honest, I think are disingenuous at best as it accounts for only about 30% of the world's food. And half of that goes to animal feedlots and biofuels. So actually, most of the food that people are eating is produced by smallholders, what's also referred to as the peasant food web. We have a hugely destructive system.

They're telling us that they need to do this to feed the world. But they're not feeding the world. A huge proportion of that estimates between 40-50% of all the food that's produced is wasted, whether that be at the farm level, in the supply chain, after it's been purchased. So we have these other massive problems. So at the moment, the problem that we have isn't so much a lack of food, it's just a very poor way of getting it to the right place. So when we look at the question of "Why are we here? Why are we doing this?"

Shane Ward  6:07  

You know, I think it comes back to this idea of this industrial mentality that we've approached, and that is actually symptomatic of a whole range of other things, we look at our economy and other aspects of society. So it's not surprising in a way that that's been applied to food production. But the only reason that it's become as bad as it has, is because fundamentally, this has only been possible because of the essential one-off energy inheritance that we've got from fossil fuels. So put simply, we have dug up some solar energy that was stored in not fully decomposed plant and animal matter. we've dug all that up, and we've burned it, to do a lot of cool stuff for a couple of 100 years. But that party is, of course, almost over. So even if fossil fuels didn't affect the climate, which they clearly do, these are finite reserves.

And we're now past that peak of this easy-to-obtain high-quality energy. What's left is a kind of an ever decreasing energy return on energy invested, or what's known as EROI. So you know, the amount of energy it now takes to get the stuff out of the ground, means that by the time you’re burning it to get the energy from it, you're getting a much smaller proportion. So it's becoming way less efficient. And it's ultimately a dead end. So what we need to be doing is urgently envisaging a low-energy future that actually partners with natural systems again, and we can do that by harnessing nature's regenerative power to essentially do the heavy lifting for us in harvesting that surplus. It's a major mindset shift, but it's entirely possible.

Katherine Ann Byam  7:46  

Yeah. Now, that's interesting. So maybe people think that this is all doom and gloom, and that, this growth that we so need, and seek, is not entirely possible. But we can argue that it is. Can you explain perhaps the difference between sustainable and regenerative as one point and explain how we can really sustain that growth?

Shane Ward  8:12  

Absolutely. Well, I would say that the first thing to understand is that sustainable. It means what it means is a lot of people that try to say it doesn't mean anything anymore, or get confused about it. But ultimately what it means is sustainable is something that can be sustained indefinitely; in essence, can carry on forever. Something which is sustainable can be carried on forever. Regenerative is the restoration of new growth. And that applies mainly to living things. So there are some key things to remember with this. So ecosystems, for example, are never static. They are either regenerating or they're degrading. They can be doing that either slowly or quickly but they are dynamic and ever-changing, they never stay still.

They're governed by constant disturbance and regeneration. So harnessing that impulse to regenerate after disturbance is the key to regenerative agriculture. Therefore, to be sustainable and to go on forever, our land use must be regenerative. So regenerative agriculture, when we're talking about - the definition that I like to use- is that it's the design and management of productive land use through mimicry of diverse natural ecosystems. That's harnessing and restoring ecological function to produce food, fibre and fuel, and is informed by observation of and continual adjustment to feedback.

So we're constantly looking and reacting to what's happening in front of us and working with these natural processes which are going on. And I guess to really boil that down, it means that you're looking in nature for a model of how ecosystems work, one that's appropriate to where you are. And then you use that to design your land use pattern. So you're working with rather than against nature so you're shifting your mindset from trying to impose artificial simplicity onto the land to one of managing the complexity that's actually there. And this is really important because it means that you can not only stop doing all that harm, stop doing all those bad things, but you can actually restore and repair a great deal of the damage that's been done.

And it's sustainable because it can be done forever. And to me, that's a huge deal because despite all our accomplishments, as a species, we owe it all to a thin layer of topsoil and the fact that it rains. So without permanent agriculture, there can be no permanent civilization, all of our concerns around economies and everything else essentially evaporates. If we can’t feed ourselves, any of that stuff matters anymore. So to me, the primary responsibility for every nation should be to ensure the security resilience and the long term viability of the food system.

The majority of the food that can be grown in a particular place, and that climate and consumed by its citizens, on a day to day basis, should be safeguarded and should be resilient to the impacts from the world around and from climate change. Instead, the fossil fuel use and the degradation of landscapes and biodiversity and all that stuff, undermine that. And that's a huge problem. And I suppose that leads me to the second part of your question, which was around growth? Well, I don't see how we can have growth, certainly not in the way that we've been thinking about it.

We can't have economic growth in the way that we've been having it so far. I just don't see how that's possible. It seems to me to be a fantasy. There is no way to have infinite growth on a finite planet. So at a certain point, that growth is going to have to stop. And that's a whole nother topic in itself. And we could talk a bit about that. And we can talk about whether you can have relative decoupling, or absolute decoupling, and all this kind of stuff, and non-growth or stable state economies. But frankly, I think what it all boils down to is that we live in a finite world. And but for some reason, we have designed a system where we have this inherent promise or hope for continued growth, but it just is fundamentally impossible.

Katherine Ann Byam  12:41  

So this brings a lot of interesting questions for me because when you read the research and the text on circular economic principles, it suggests that this continuous growth could be possible, right? Because if you're finding ways to put things back into the system, either through extending its use, or through returning it to the environment through different means, but retaining it sustainably somehow to the environment, there is potential for continued growth. Does that fall asleep?

Shane Ward  13:14  

Well, just put up what's growing in that situation, that sounds to me like a stable state. It sounds to me like a healthy, stable state where nothing is like the laws of the universe - energy and matter is not destroyed or created, they're just transformed. And if we have economies that are based on that, or societies that are at least that is based on those principles, then that seems to be a sustainable idea, at least in theory. And if things are cycling through, then I would call that a circular or a sustainable economy but there's not really one that's growing. That's because there are only finite resources.

In fact, when we say, "Okay, well, we're not using fossil fuels. If we're not using this buried one-off inheritance of energy, then where does the energy come from?" Well, like all energy, all living systems on the planet really has only one source of energy. And it's sunlight that moves everything else. So it takes in sunlight and it releases heat. And that's it. And then all of the living systems, including us, and our entire evolution has been based on that system, and how to harness that energy, turned it into chemical energy, turn that chemical energy into work, and so on and so forth. So I feel like if we are going to design something which lasts forever or indefinitely that's sustainable, then it needs to work on those principles because that's just the reality we're faced with.

Katherine Ann Byam  14:39  

Yeah, absolutely. So now we want to kind of look at some other systems that aren't necessarily regenerative. They're probably more modern systems like aquaponics and hydroponics and aeroponics and different ways of growing food. Are these relevant solutions or are these also just the bit of delaying the inevitable?

Shane Ward  15:03  

That's a good question. But I suppose we need to ask relevant to what is the question? Every tool has a context where it's appropriate. So it's not that one thing is just always good or always bad but more of what are these solutions to? So first, let's look at the whole system of each idea. The energy and the nutrient inputs - where do these come from? A part of the challenge with things like hydroponics, for example, is that often these systems make sense when you have abundant energy. You obviously need the physical infrastructure to build a greenhouse or whatever that you're using. And then, of course, you need to do climate control and temperature control. There's a lot of energy embodied and all of that.

And but even if you say, you've got that already, can it be run essentially self-sufficiently forever? Well, I'm not sure that it can. I think at least the way that I've seen them done, you need nutrients in those systems, which are brought usually in the form of synthetic chemicals which are of course hugely energy costly to produce, and then you got to transport them, and water pumping. All this kind of stuff is quite high energy systems, even the most efficient ones. So in general terms, I would say that while they may have a place in certain circumstances, I don't see them as broad solutions to the problems that we have.

And I think it's true of any solution. Really, I think what it does is it forces us to reflect on our habits or tendency to jump to solutions immediately. Obviously, problems need solutions. But what we're often not very good at I think, as a species, is accurately identifying what the actual problem is. We are quite susceptible to treat symptoms and not root causes. Our assumptions about things and habituation to the context that we find ourselves in can discourage us from digging deeper and there are plenty of incentives to the system that we operate in to discourage systemic change or going against the grain. So I think often, we just need to really ask ourselves when we think of something as a solution, look at it as a tool, and then try and understand what am I actually trying to solve with this?

Katherine Ann Byam  17:23  

Yeah, absolutely. As we look at climate change, I think a lot of people conflate all of these issues into one thing, but there are several issues here. And if we look at climate change, I can see that these different types of solutions can be relevant to places that are climate-stressed. Because in your earlier comment, you mentioned that governments should be looking for maintaining the sustainability of their own food supply - using what's there. But that becomes more pressed as climate change happened simultaneously. So what are your reflections on that for countries that are in that belt of climate jeopardy? Let's see.

Shane Ward  18:13  

Yes. Obviously, all countries are going to be affected. I would say that. To me, regenerative agriculture is a huge part of that because, for several reasons, it not only solves several of the problems. In other words, it stops us from doing bad. It actually goes beyond that by not only restoring the damage that's been done, but to actually do good and can do things like sequester carbon in soils, and help restore biodiversity. That is the potential that it has. Certainly, in a lot of developing areas and tropical countries, we've seen Agroecology, as it's often termed, is being used to do exactly that - to provide food security and economic opportunity to smallholders and to the village scale at the regional scale.

And I think that really what we're doing is we're trying to say that it's not enough to just stop doing the bad stuff. We've actually got to try and look at how we can make positive progress. I feel that if we're learning the lessons from nature, it is that we get resilience through diversity. And that's true at all different levels of the organisation and particularly true if we're talking about how you design and manage a living food production system. So that diversity becomes a key part which means that you're no longer operating a monoculture, you don't just say, "okay, you over there, you grow maize, and then you over there, you do something else, you could do goats, and then you do soy." So you don't split it up every parcel of land or every reasonable area has a mixed production because what you do is you start getting benefits from that diversity.

Not only do you get economic benefits of course. If the price of one thing plummets, you still got something else giving you an income. But actually, you start getting the benefits of things like pest control, pathogen control, because you are hosting the habitat for the things which predict upon those pests. You are able to restore nutrient cycling and fostering healthy soils. That's an ecosystem that is supporting healthy plants. You're getting the moderation of wind, and that you're soaking more rainfall in and so on, and so forth. You’re actually restoring these ecosystems. You're restoring the function of the landscape. So that's not only a good thing for nature. That's a good thing for us. We're connected to that.

You start producing healthier food that has more bio-nutrients in it. You're getting fewer pests and diseases, problems that actually have an effect on human health as well as the landscape of health. We're starting to sequester more carbon. We can actually repair the hydrology of landscapes. We can reverse the desertification at larger scales. There's evidence to suggest that we can actually start to bring rain back to places by putting trees back into landscapes with sufficient scale.

These are quite powerful tools. And we only have to look at some of the ecosystems around the world which have been degraded. If you think the Middle East used to be the Fertile Crescent that used to be the breadbasket of civilization. Look at it now. I mean the Mediterranean didn't use to look like what it looks now all those rocks and that's the bones of the earth sticking out where all the soil is washed away after all the trees have been cut down. We have massive impacts on the landscape but we also have the power to restore them. And that's really powerful.

Katherine Ann Byam  22:24  

Absolutely. Would you say that our experiences of the pandemic have created a  mandate for change? 

Shane Ward  22:33  

Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I can't speak for everywhere, of course. But you know, I have been in Australia and New Zealand, during several lockdowns and I've spoken to friends and colleagues around the world. And I think that there's definitely a view that the Covid 19 pandemic has actually had a real impact on a lot of people's perception of the world that they exist in. There's been in some cases a lot of reconnection to the community or valuing of the community that they're in, realising that those ties are really important. I think there's been a lot of questioning I've noticed about what really matters?

 Why are people deeply living in cities going and working hard at their jobs to earn more money to maybe pay off a mortgage or something? Is that really what they all they want out of life? And what's the rush? Being forced to take a pause and take a break has actually had a real impact. I think in a lot of cases. I've also noticed signs that more and more people are starting to realise that the system, the globalised world that we live in, and the systems that underpin it are quite brutal.

They've got a glimpse of that, which may be many of us had been immune to for a while. You're living in a developed world where we are led to believe that we can have anything we want, almost anytime we want. It was just how we got used to things being, probably the promises of new technology and all these new wonderful things in the way that our world is changing. And suddenly to be confronted with empty supermarket shelves in some places and just making us question, "what's the use of a food system? If it only works in the good times?"

And possibly the same for the economy - it's not safe. It's a bit of a confronting reminder that perhaps we can't do everything we want to do when we want to. It makes us question, "are we entitled to everything that we can dream of? Is that reality?” Or is that just something that we've been told through advertising and all these other things to buy stuff? I think this is really key because the again, this fossil fuel inheritance has diluted us a bit into a techno fantasy where we genuinely believe we live in a world without limits.

And we tell ourselves and each other this story in countless ways. But really no matter what anyone thinks that's just not the case. It's not it's not reality. Someone I remember reading a quote that was talking about resources and saying that, "if we continue to live in a world like there’s no tomorrow, there won't be one." And I just think, you know, when we over-consume energy and natural resources, we are borrowing that from future generations, our children. So maybe it's just time to grow up a bit and accept that the world we need won't fit inside the rules that we have. So maybe we've got to change those rules.

And especially when we look at what's coming down the line at us - climate change, biodiversity loss, and that's enormous and the only future that will be viable long-term for us is one that operates within ecological limits. Anything else is just a one-way ticket to collapse.

Katherine Ann Byam  25:52  

Yeah, I think, probably my last question, we'll see how we go. What you've said has a lot of implications for how we live. And I know the pandemic has open the door to change because we've seen that we can completely change our behaviours. But I also know that there are a lot of people that are looking forward to when we can go back. There's a lot of talk about when we go back, there are things that they definitely don't want. And so that's the immediate things like going back into a cubicle in an office. People are pretty open to being quite flexible about how they work. But I don't know if the realities that we're talking about today are still close enough to home for many people. What individual changes do we need for people to make in order to start moving governments and decision-makers toward this cleaner, clearer and more regenerative future?

Shane Ward  26:58  

It's such a good question. And I guess it's one that's never that far away from my thoughts. One note on all of this really is that I've noticed that in this digital world that we inhabit more and moreover the last few years, there's a tendency for discussions to become polarised and for people to miss or not be interested in the nuance anymore because everything's a bit black and white. It's a bit adversarial. And I think that that's problematic. Because a lot of these approaches, these answers that are out there for us require us to demand that we be a bit more observant and a little more humble.

 And you know sit in the question a bit more sometimes. Look at what's actually going on observe and really see that everything is somewhat contextual. So to answer your question, there is no one size fits all response to that. What Bill Gates, Jeff Bezos, Larry Page can do versus what you or I or a teenage factory worker in Southeast Asia can do is going to vary wildly. So you know, it's difficult to generalise. But I suppose I'd say, whoever you are, wherever you are, start where you are.

 Influence while you can, but never lose sight of the big picture. Recognise that the system makes hypocrites of all of us and demand better choices. Buy with whatever spending power you have. Companies, I've seen this plenty of times, played us and say they're just giving people what they want but that's passing the buck. Do what you can in your life. Know that individual change will never be sufficient to tackle this. But it's equally true that we absolutely cannot do it without you.

 One really powerful thing I think that will benefit you and the wider world is to understand and care about where your food comes from and how it's produced. Now, there's so much talk about our good food, bad food, I can't eat meat, I'm gonna become a vegan for environmental reasons. Whether food is good or bad is determined by how it is produced, not what it is.

That's the key takeaway here. And that should matter to everyone because the health of the ecological system where your food comes from is directly connected to the health of your own body system. You're taking that food and you're consuming it, You're feeding the microbes in your gut and that food is becoming you. So it actually really matters how your food is produced and where it comes from. So support those people that are out there regenerating their soils and their landscapes and not destroying them.

 That's a huge step if people can do that. So if that ends up with people forming closer ties to the food that they eat and then who's producing it or where it comes from and more of a localised food connection, then I think that's a huge step. But maybe I'll just leave with this parting thought. We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children.