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About this Episode

Marie Lockwood is a teacher and the founder of Rebyl Vybes

Rebyl Vybes - Helping you to enjoy life's little pleasures in a sustainable way.

She and her mom prepare and ship home kits for those looking to start on their eco journey and pamper boxes so that you can indulge in some guilt free pleasure on a subscription model basis.

Sam Pitman is an occupational therapist and the Co-founder of Eco Essex, an online community supporting you on your eco journey.

Tune in to learn more about how they are making an impact.

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Connect with Marie and Sam

Episode Transcript

Katherine Ann Byam 0:00
I've just had the most brilliant conversation with a teacher and an occupational therapist two business owners who are helping you modify your views and your approach to plastic. Let's hear a little bit about why this matters.

Marie Lockwood 0:13
My class, there's 26 children and all 26 children now reuse their water bottles that we used to bring in plastic bottles to school. And over the last couple of years, we've sort of tried our best to change their opinions on that through education and allowing them really to find the facts themselves. So 26 Children now bring a reusable bottles in my class, and added that up, that is something like 5122 plastic bottles saved by my one class in a year. Now, times that by all the classes in the school and all the schools in the country it's huge.

Katherine Ann Byam 0:58
This is season five, the great debates of our times, Season Five will be centred around the great debates. And we will be comparing and contrasting different viewpoints on various topics that are consuming the public discourse at present. The reason I've decided to take this approach is because we, or at least many of us, are losing the skill of debate. And I think this is an essential skill for us all to practice once more. I don't see how we get to the point of saving the world and saving our planet. If we don't know how to discuss our differences. I also think that the solution to most of our challenges is somewhere in the spectrum of views but never a type of extreme. I will be working with guests to curate the content and discuss beforehand, I will understand their positions their areas of genius, and navigate my questions around that so that the conversation is challenging and stimulating without being combative. I hope you enjoy season five of where ideas launch the Sustainable Innovation podcast.

Marie Lockwood is a teacher and the founder of rebyl vybes, rebyl vybes helps you to enjoy life's little pleasures in a sustainable way. She and her mum prepare and ship home kits for those looking to start on their eco journey and pamper boxes so that you can indulge in some guilt free pleasure on a subscription model basis. Sam Pitman is an occupational therapist, and the co founder of eco Essex, and online community supporting you on your eco journey. Hi, Marie and hi, Sam, it's great to have you both on where ideas launch.

Read Lockwood 2:33
Thank you for having us, lovely to be here.

Katherine Ann Byam 2:36
Wonderful to have you both. So I'm going to start with the truth. So I feel guilty every week when I take my trash out. And it's full of recycling and landfill waste. Still, even with my greatest efforts to look at things in my kitchen, look at things in my bathroom, I'm still producing a significant amount of waste to landfill. And even just buying a lot of plastics that are single use in some cases, because I can't seem to find another option. Or it's just not a convenient option. Why do you think it's so hard for people who care about the planet to give up their comforts? And what can help us take the next step? That's the usum.

Sam Pitman 3:20
I think there's so many reasons why we don't want to make those changes. And I think some of it is generations and generation of lifestyle. But you can't just change that overnight, you know, our parents generation the way they were brought up, you can't change that overnight. And I think however many years it takes to, for us to have been moulded in this way, it's going to take time to mould us back out of that way. But also, I think there's so many things about our lifestyle that are just easy and convenient. And the lifestyle we have now you know, in Western society, is so consumer based, but you know, we're driven to also think that things make us happy. So if we buy things that'll make us happy, which it does for the short term, right? But it doesn't give us long term joy, but that's what we believe. And so we believe that these things give us comfort and that we need them. And actually, it's really hard to give up that when that's almost what you've been led to believe - I need these things in my life. I think the other thing as well is it can be scary. So even if you want to change your comforts, sometimes it's easy, well it is, it's easier to conform with others isn't it? Always it's easier to conform than it is to actually stand up for what you believe in and be the odd one out. So I think there's so many challenges that we have to face in order to make these changes.

Katherine Ann Byam 4:39
What do you think was the simplest steps for you to take when you made your initial changes I know with a family as well. You know, it changes the game a lot. So there's a lot more things that you need to balance and juggle.

Sam Pitman 4:53
I think being realistic and not aiming for perfection. So for example, when I did cloth nappies, I used cloth nappies with all of my children. But I won't ever say that I used cloth nappies 100% of the time, because it came with it's own challenges. And I didn't want to go out and like have to carry the loads of cloth nappies that are bigger, it's just loads of these reasons; there's more washing, you know, we've twins I have enough washing to do, I did not want more washing. So, you know, rather than us thinking that we have to be black, and we have or we have to be white, it's okay, just to do your best. So I say I use cloth nappies, I don't know, maybe 75% of the time. And that's all I could manage. And it's the same with anything, it's almost like, you know, to be vegan as well, like, amazing if you can be that dedicated to be fully vegan, and I'm not there yet. I'm not at that stage of my own journey. But I'm trying to eat vegan most of the time, there's, I think, as well, if you can be realistic, and not have to aim for perfectionism, that will be really, a really good goal.

Katherine Ann Byam 4:57
So Marie, tell me a bit about rebyl vybes, because I invited you to the show, because I really like the idea of what you're doing. And I want to get into what was behind starting this brand for you, how you came up with the idea, how you decided to do it.

Marie Lockwood 6:13
So I just like to start by saying, I totally agree with Sam starting to make changes any way that you can. And being realistic with them is absolutely one of the most fundamental things you can do because I am not a perfectionist. And I don't, I don't want to come on here and portray myself as somebody that is absolutely plastic free. Because I'm certainly not I'm not there either. And it's convenient at times. And in a busy lifestyle. That's sometimes it's a lot's that takes over. I did start rebyl vybes, because of a frustration that I was becoming more and more aware of during lockdown, there was a huge rise in subscription boxes. And probably like Sam said, because you wanted to make yourself feel good. And you bought something nice, cause you couldn't go out of the house, you know, you did something to make yourself feel better. And to get something nice delivered through the post was was great, if that's what you wanted to do. But I was getting more and more frustrated, because so many subscription boxes I was seeing online, were absolutely filled with single use plastic waste from the packaging of them and the contents of them. And I was actually discussing it with my mum. And we were saying, you know, why are people not looking for something different? So we decided at that point that actually, okay, we had an idea why were we just gonna keep discussing it? Why didn't we do something about it? Because if somebody else can start a business up and get lots of sales for all this plastic waste, why can't we do the same for something that's more sustainable, and really, that is where rebyl vybes started. The name itself, which chose rebel as in rebellion. So rebellion against plastic waste, particularly single use plastic waste, and the logo was really created because we live in a very rare location, we're very close to the sea, we're surrounded by the forests, lots of pine forests here, the Merrylands things like that. So the logo, we wanted something that sort of represented us, where we come from, and therefore that's, that's where our actual logo came from. But we do want to provide an alternative. I think getting a gift box through the post is a great idea. Getting a sustainable gift box is an even better idea.

Katherine Ann Byam 8:37
I absolutely agree. I think that receiving any box anything in the mail that's not a bill, there's a lot of excitement, right? It's actually generates a lot of positive energy and to have something that's actually useful that's not going to make you feel guilty. Is really important I guess what I tend to get like people still like giving gifts you know and giving gifts as a nice idea but when you get the 15th tiny bottle of cream that you're never going to use, you know you're going to just lose it in your handbag again, you know versus you know, getting a little package that's biodegradable that you can plant some seeds, you know, something like this, it just changes completely how you feel about that box. So what's inside your subscription box? What's the potential impact to someone like me who wants to sort of cut waste overall? Tell Tell me about your box.

Marie Lockwood 9:31
Okay, so we have two different boxes. We started off with a pamper box. So inside that is a range of different products. They are bath products, beauty products, body creams, soaps, shampoo bars, something nice maybe like a nice, scented bodywash. But everything inside the box is single use plastic free. It's also bought from other small businesses. So it's sourced from within the UK to try to limit the carbon footprint that we have. And also, most of the bottles, for example, the body wash, for example, is glass bottles. So they're reusable, I reuse mine for lots of different things, I would totally say that anything that can be used is included in it. So the boxes we reuse the boxes for school. So I'm a school teacher as well as business owner. So I have a couple of people at school also that buy our boxes and we use them at school for lots of storage. And things such as that. The other box is a new one it is, it started out to be an equal sort of box where each month will be something different. And this is where Sam comes in. So I met Sam, just through a group on Facebook, and we got chatting, and we decided that Sam would be a really good addition to the box. And she was going to be able to provide people with the sort of educational side of things or tips and useful. Hence, she runs her own group successfully. And we thought that, that would be a really good twist on a different type of box. So in our home boxes are a range of different sustainable products that you might have as an easy swap for essential items. And they are really things that you would use in everyday, like scrubbing brushes, reusable Kitchen rolls, things that you might be able to make a really useful equal swap with, they are going to change. Okay, so we we don't want to be in a situation where we're recreating lots and lots of waste. And I think I've quickly learned that, actually, although the idea behind our box was a really good one to start with, it needs to evolve into something better. So instead of having our original idea, which was going to be a different box per month, so ultimately kitchen box, and then maybe a bathroom focus, we're going to change it to actual home kits. So you have a starter kit, and Sam will still be a part of that box, where this kit will set somebody up for an equal journey. So you're going to be able to get a box delivered, which will have lots of different sustainable options. It'll be ideal for if you're maybe for example, if you're moving house, or you're getting your first house, it could be ideal for a student or somebody that wants to start out when more sustainable journey. So that's the way that we're going. And by doing that it also limits any unnecessary waste, because we don't want to be adding to people's purchases and buying multiples of other things when actually, we're trying to do the opposite.

Katherine Ann Byam 12:57
Yeah. And are we allowed to kind of pick and choose what goes into a box every month? Like is that an option?

Marie Lockwood 13:03
At the minute it's not, but it is something that I am looking into. Because what I would eventually like to do is have a selection whereby you can decide whether or not you need certain items, things such as I mean, I have just recently I've started changing as I go, my plastic scrubbing brush that I've had for a long time is out, but not until it was needing to be put out. And now I've got my more sustainable options. So things like that. So yes, eventually, we would like to give options for people to use and choose what they need.

Katherine Ann Byam 13:39
And Sam, what is your contribution to the box. So I know that there aren't many people probably listening to the show who are used to subscription boxes like this, they're probably used to maybe who gives a crap. So they will order the toilet paper and it will arrive every four months or six months or whatever. Or maybe their used to Gusto or HelloFresh to order some food. But what is your contribution from a service perspective to this box? And how does that work?

Sam Pitman 14:06
Well, I mean, I kind of say to people, I'm in the box. I don't have a product in the box, because I don't sell products, but I sell myself in a way that I want to support people I have learned from my own journey and from supporting others and observing others that are making these changes because they are lifestyle changes. And this is, it's about gaining huge lifestyle information to change the way you think about life and you know, the way we live, there's so much to it that actually it can feel overwhelming and daunting for people and you know, that anxiety of like, I do want to do something but I don't know where to start and I don't really have anybody else to talk to about this because, you know, none of my family care about these issues. And so my aim is to support people through mentoring, whether that's one to one mentoring, if they want that tailored support, I come from an occupational therapy background, you see. So I'm very much used to working with people on a one to one basis in order to help people reach their goals. But at the moment, I offer monthly mentoring sessions, which is an idea that I came up with last year. And I wanted to offer that each month that because it's a more affordable option for people because money is, you know, money is important to people, you know, especially at the moment. So the idea is that I can provide support, tips, as well as giving people a community. And I think I've learned so much over the recent years about how important it is to feel part of, and feel connected to, other like minded people. And I try and keep the vibe positive, because this isn't a happy topic, climate change is not a happy topic. But I very much try and keep it as light hearted as I can, when it comes to making sure people end with an action, you know, let's think of something positive you can do. And maybe let's just, let's maybe reflect on something positive you have done this month, because actually, we can always go, Oh, I didn't do very well at that. And I still use loads of plastic, and I still use my car. But again, that's negative. And that's not helpful. So try and keep it positive. And as down to earth and as straightforward as possible. Like, I'm not into complicated words. And things, I just want to make it useful for people that are starting out on their eco journey, really.

Katherine Ann Byam 16:27
That's perfect. And I want to touch on something that you kind of brought up but didn't fully. So you're both collaborating on this. And what I want to say is that a lot of times when you decide to take this journey, whether it be in your personal life, or in a business decision, like you both have made business decisions around this as well. It can feel quite lonely and the decision fatigue, the need to be in integrity with what you're selling, and promoting and stuff like that can can really be daunting. How important is it to have a collaborator, let me start with Marie,

Marie Lockwood 17:03
Really important, I would say I have learned so much from Sam. So I knew a lot of things beforehand, I was really passionate about what I wanted to do, I had a clear idea about why I wanted to do it. And then Sam came along like a breath of fresh air, and really made me think personally about my own life, and what I was doing in it but also looking for my business. And so Sam's really helped me a lot. She's given me sort of a direction. Almost like she's been my personal mentor on this journey as well. And I've joined her groups and know exactly where she's coming from, I know what she does, and how friendly and approachable she is and I knew exactly that she was definitely the right person to collaborate with, we're on exactly the same wavelength. And I feel like she's somebody that offers a real good balance to our business.

Katherine Ann Byam 18:01
And, Sam for you, what has it been like?

Sam Pitman 18:05
Well again, like Marie said, I think when you find somebody you share values with. And you know, you can bounce ideas off each other and support each other. It's really nice, because, I mean, I sit at home for hours a week, on my own on my computer, and I've got so many ideas. I don't know where to start, you know? And yeah, like you said, decision fatigue is like, and so actually the idea of having somebody to share those decisions with and to have conversations with and bounce ideas with people is really lovely. And not just not to feel alone. Yeah, of course, there's financial benefits if you have a successful business, but I don't even think that's why most people do it is because we just genuinely want to make as big an impact as possible. So, you know, you widen your audience, don't you? You know, you can support more people. So I think it's win win. Really?

Katherine Ann Byam 19:00
Absolutely. So, Marie, I'm gonna go back to you. And in terms of the reception of your boxes, so far, what has been the positive sort of feedback and reinforcements in people's behavioural changes that you've seen,

Marie Lockwood 19:15
We have had some really, really lovely positive feedback. Lots of people have commented to say how excited they are when they receive a box. Now, they really look forward to it coming each month, because they don't know what's going to be in it. But they know whatever it's going to benefit, it's going to be something that's going to help a little bit with either self care, or with the other boxes, it would obviously help with a sort of lifestyle choices. They also I hope anyway, that our boxes, inspire people and educate them in some way, shape or form, whether or not it's through Sam involvement in her maintenance sessions or whether or not it just makes them think, you know, I didn't try that before. Maybe, maybe I should try this one now. Because everybody's learning, I'm learning on the journey as much as everybody else is I'm still finding different choices that I can use, I'm still trying out different products, and I'm finding which ones work best for me. So I think it's I'm hoping anyway that our boxes are educating, inspiring and giving a little glimmer of something nice in amongst our busy lives really.

Katherine Ann Byam 20:26
You know, it starts with a spark, right? That's, that's what everyone really says. And when you light that fire, it ripples and ripples after a while, it's similar to me starting this journey where ideas launch as a podcast, when I started it, my aim was to sort of influence my friends, if I'm being honest, like I come from a big corporate background, and you know, all of my friends work in companies who actually have the power to make change, but probably aren't necessarily as passionate about the change. And I wanted to sort of nudge them, right that was my idea behind the podcast to kind of nudge them, let them see that there's, there's possibility not just from a technical standpoint, in terms of, you know, what the great thinkers are doing, and from a business perspective, as well, but also small entrepreneurs, small businesses, people who are just fed up and deciding to do something about it like yourselves, and I think that I didn't know it immediately, because, you know, the initial feedback was great, but then it was like, oh, maybe people aren't listening as much. It's not as big as other podcasts. But today is like, even though it's still a very niche podcast, you know, I have such good feedback, like, the quality of the feedback is just improved and improved. People are really excited to hear these stories, and you know, they really engage in what I'm doing. And it doesn't matter what level they are right from, from the CEOs, to someone who is, you know, just picking up a business for the first time, everyone's excited about what the story and the message is. So I think, definitely, you have to keep going. You have to keep going. And you have to find more ways to collaborate and interact with as many business owners and people as possible. So I'm going to switch to another question now. And there are many who like to challenge the idea of the Sustainable straw and the sustainable toothbrush. So let's explore this a little bit. So I've seen the documentaries of you know, the straws, and in a turtles, turtles throat and you know, getting stuck, etc. Yet, we know that straws aren't the biggest problem in the ocean, right? Like, the actual biggest problem in the ocean is probably the fishing nets. If we really think about it like that, even though the way that we fish the way that commercial fishing is done. Or if we look at things like the toothbrush, typically, we still got plastic in the bristles, right? There's still nothing that we can yet do about that. So what are your thoughts about putting these products together and transitioning to sustainable products? Even knowing that, you know, it's not, it's not fully there, what are your thoughts on that?

Sam Pitman 23:09
I have two views it's like do the stuff that's really easy, that's not going to stress you out and overwhelm you. But also, as you don't stress about all the little things just do something really useful.

Katherine Ann Byam 23:19
Yeah, you know, I see it in two ways as well, I see that making these small changes is symbolic as well. So this is one of the things one of the reasons I'm excited about Marie's box it's like, this is a symbolic, I am making a shift. And every time I go to the bathroom, and I see this wooden toothbrush, or I see my soap dish that's now you know, there when it's little loofa to absorb some of the soap droppings, so that I can reuse that soap that drops off the soap bar, you know, every time you see these things, it's a reminder of what I've committed to, and having them as things that you deal with every day reminds you of that commitment every day. So it's not just about the item itself. It's about what the item represents. I don't know if you share that, Marie?

Marie Lockwood 24:06
Yeah, absolutely. And in my sort of opinion, I think that all change efforts are positive change it's better than no change at all. As I said before, I'm also a teacher. So through education wise, we are really keen to try to turn that sort of tide on the use of plastic with children that we have in our own classes. So anything that we can actually have an impact with so for example, my class there's 26 children in it and I added up the other day that all 26 children now reuse their water bottles that they used to bring in plastic bottles to school. And over the last couple of years we've sort of tried our best to change the opinions on that through education and allowing them really to find the facts themselves. So 26 children now bring a reusable bottle to my class. And when I added that up, that is something like 5122 plastic bottles saved by my one class in a year. Now times that by all the classes in the school and all the schools in the country is huge, absolutely massive. So, in my opinion, one small change, as long as it's a change for the good is better than nothing. And I think I always like to go back, there's a quote that says I am only one said 7 billion people, I love that. And I think that is absolutely spot on hits the nail on the head.

Sam Pitman 25:42
I think what I like about that Marie is that you've not just inspired like one person, though, you've inspired all that whole class, and I'm guessing your whole school, and all of those families. And that's almost where it's bigger, isn't it, because you can start with one thing. That's what I was saying earlier. Like, if I just do that, but never talk about it, I'm not going to have a huge impact. But when one person does it times, you're whole school. And then that those children have inspired all of their parents and all those families, it ends up having this bigger effect.

Marie Lockwood 26:11
Yeah, and children are sometimes the best people to pressure parents, because they nag at you, and they tell you why you should change it. And they're very honest. And they show you the facts and the figures, and they make you feel a bit guilty. So you tend to want to change. So at the minute, as well as my own class, which they are really on board with everything. I've also got another school, further down the country who's also starting out on a plastic free schools journey. So we're going to do a little bit of collaboration, hopefully, so it will spread. And that's the bigger picture that will join the plastic free schools programme. And we'll try and get our message out across as many people as possible.

Sam Pitman 26:59
But I almost think, for most people, that's almost the obvious starting point, isn't it, of like to get them on board is actually making those simple steps because they are easy, and like the subscription kit, you're gonna have like, it's just easy, there's almost another reason to do it. Because you're taking all the pressure off. And it's easy to do that.

Katherine Ann Byam 27:17
That's awesome. I want to switch now to sort of regulation. So I'm going to tell a story before I comment on this regulatory change. So I've been in London last couple of weeks, cat sitting for a friend of mine, and in an area where you know, the families are well off. So at the schools in the neighbourhood, all the cars that were pulling up were Tesla's. Now, one of the reasons I think that is, is that, you know, London has recently introduced this ultra low emission zone, so you have this additional charge, you still have the congestion tax. So there's loads of charges now for having a car for driving around in a car. And that has prompted a wide scale change and switch to electric cars. So this is why a lot of the mums in this neighbourhood are now driving these electric cars. Now, there's a lot of debates. And you know, I have a friend who's been on this podcast, who really talks about the sustainable mobility transition. And we can argue that, you know, maybe they don't need a car, they can just walk with their kids, perhaps that would have been a better switch. But knowing that people have these hard encoded habits, then perhaps electric vehicles are a nice interim shift, and regulation that supports that preserves the economy, and also promotes, the better behaviours for the planet. Now, we know that the UN has recently reviewed its Environment Programme, and recently passed a resolution to deal with plastics throughout its lifecycle, so forcing companies to sort of deal with their plastic throughout the life of the product. How do you see this impacting how business is done today?

Marie Lockwood 29:07
I think that it's a really good thing that's happened, actually, I think that it's gonna make a lot more businesses accountable, and a lot more transparent. Because at the end of the day, we'll reach a point in this time, where it's actually at crisis level, it's, gone beyond what is ever going to be acceptable. And if something doesn't happen now, then there's gonna be a disaster, that's looming ahead of us, really. I mean, I was looking at facts and figures just a few days ago. And even though I knew how bad the plastic production is for our planet, when you actually look into the facts and figures of it, it's absolutely astounding. And the more worrying thing is the forecast and their predictions for what it might become. So for example, I think it was 400 million tonnes of plastic produced at the minute but its potential as to double by 2040 if nothing was to happen, and given that at the minute, we have a huge problem with plastic pollution entering the seas, I think something desperately needed doing. So I think as much as for some businesses, it might be a struggle to make that shift. I think really, in realistic terms, it's the only way forward, because we're heading for disaster otherwise.

Katherine Ann Byam 30:29
And Sam, your views,

Sam Pitman 30:30
One of the things I'm realising is that small businesses especially don't necessarily see how sustainability is relevant to them. If they're not in and they're not selling the toothbrushes or electric cars, it's almost like they can't relate to it. It's not relevant to their business. So I, you know, the more we can do to enforce businesses to do things or follow these policies, I mean, we have to, like Marie said, we, it's kind of we can't be gentle anymore. You know, yes, it is going to have impacts for business. But I almost see as no choice now we have to, these changes have to happen and businesses have to take responsibility for products, you know, the fact that not only 9% of plastic that can be recycled is actually recycled. And that's a crazy figure like that. That's not on, like in theory, like no plastic ever needs to be virgin produce, again, we have enough plastic to make everything. So yeah, I agree that businesses have to start doing more now.

Katherine Ann Byam 31:24
Okay, so I'm gonna move to rapid fire questions to sort of close this out. I'm gonna, alternate between between both of you. And I did not prepare you for this. So I'm gonna with Marie. So my rapid fire question to you is, what's the most transformational sustainability book you've read?

Marie Lockwood 31:48
Oh, my goodness, you really put me on the spot now because my memory is shocking. To be honest, you know, I don't read books are such I read online documents, and probably one of the ones that really hits home to me as one from the United Nations. It's called pollution to solution. And that is full of really good information, facts and figures that support everything that's really behind my business, everything that I strive to try to do, and it really hits home. Why every business needs to change, not just me as a small business, but huge businesses, everybody. You know, it's our responsibility it's everybody's responsibility, because we've all created, we're all we've all created waste. We all do continue to create waste.

Katherine Ann Byam 32:42
And Sam moving to you. What's your favourite documentary? And why?

Sam Pitman 32:46
Oh documentary? Ah, the one that sticks in my mind the most? I've probably watched in the last month is SeaSpiracy. I mean, it was a bit controversial when there was criticisms after it came out, but you know, there's gonna be there's always somebody's gonna say something negative about these shocking facts, I've never actually eaten fish, because I have some kind of random phobia, thing. But if I did, I would never have been able to eat fish again, after watching that. And I like, Katherine, you said something only about actually, the biggest pollution in the sea is actually not the plastic straws. It's the fishing nets. And actually, the devastation from fishing nets I never knew. And that was a real, real eye opener.

Marie Lockwood 33:29
I actually cried after watching that it was horrible, in a really shocking way, but one that I needed to listen to.

Sam Pitman 33:36
Yeah, exactly.

Katherine Ann Byam 33:38
Marie, what's your greatest lesson? In this whole journey?

Marie Lockwood 33:43
My greatest lesson is probably to not strive for perfection. But to know that actually doing something is better than doing nothing and knowing that what I am doing is as good as I can do at this moment in time. And that is, okay. It's, you don't need to be perfect. You know, we all have our flaws. But we're all trying to learn as we go, and we do what we can.

Katherine Ann Byam 34:11
And Sam what's your biggest dream?

Sam Pitman 34:14
My biggest dream? Oh, wow. Well, obviously, just to reverse climate change completely. Obviously, my dream would be if we could keep under this 1.5 degree. You know, heat rise would be amazing. But if I looked at more personal journeys, my role would be about actually feeling like I actually am making a big impact in within Essex and beyond, which is a subjective goal, which I don't know if I can ever achieve. They can't measure it. But yeah, my dream is to have real real impact in Essex to make differences to individuals and businesses to be more sustainable.

Katherine Ann Byam 34:54
Wonderful, ladies, tell my listeners how they can connect with you. Let's start with Marie.

Marie Lockwood 34:59
So you can find me on Instagram under rebyl vybes or via Facebook. Or you can alternatively you can go on and have a look at my website, www dot rebyl vybes.co.uk

Katherine Ann Byam 35:13
And that's vy BS vibes.

Marie Lockwood 35:16
It is it's slightly different, so it's R E B Y L V Y B E S, we had to be very careful when we were looking into trademarks.

Sam Pitman 35:25
And you just wanted to be a rebel and spell rebel, wrong?

Marie Lockwood 35:27
We just wanted exactly that.

Sam Pitman 35:32
Yep, so, yep, Facebook, Instagram. Eco Essex.

Katherine Ann Byam 35:38
Wonderful. Thank you, ladies so much for coming on the show. I know it's late at night. We had to get the kids to bed before before we did this. Thanks so much for spending the time with me. Thanks so much for having us. Yeah, thank you.

This podcast is brought to you today by the brand new women in sustainable business awards that kicks off in 2023. If you're a business owner who's starting a business with principles of sustainability in mind, and you want to preserve some lost skills, some handcrafting, artisanal work, or you're a social media manager supporting purpose driven brands, or you're creating fashion or something that is relevant to the sustainability and green transformation. You are more than welcome to join us and to get involved in these awards. Check out our group on Facebook women in sustainable business, or follow the podcast where ideas launch on Instagram to find out more

069 Waste to Wealth

About this Episode

Roz Edwards has been a business owner now for 30 years, initially in African Art and now with a collection of thousands of mannequins rescued from landfill.

Roz started Mannakin from nothing, not even the mannequins, but she was determined to use her business acumen and creativity to create a meaningful sustainable business. Whilst researching mannequins she found an opportunity to create a business out of hiring them, to provide for her children while freeing herself from the restrictions of poverty.

Today, Mannakin Hall in Lincolnshire houses a vast collection of mannequins to hire, the majority of which has been diverted from landfill. The unusual scenery within the grounds has created a popular film location, and a major source of Roz’s wealth and business growth. Roz has also started Club Mannakin to help independent, creative business owners grow and scale.

We talked about:

Her growing youtube following of people inspired by her story (over 1mn views)

What it's like starting an idea (circular economy) way before it's time had come.

The challenges and successes in growing and scaling the business

Tips for sustainable business owners just getting started

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Episode Transcript

Katherine Ann Byam 0:03
Roz, welcome to where Ideas Launch!

Roz Edwards 1:37
Hey, Katherine, thanks so much for having me on here. So exciting.

Katherine Ann Byam 1:40
Really great to have you. And great that your video on YouTube is absolutely blowing up, right? How many views are you up to today?

Roz Edwards 1:47
And I've not checked because I thought I'd just give it a bit of a break. Because I have been constantly checking. It's going up by about 3000 views a day, which is just a It's just incredible. So I think the last time I checked it was on 1,011,000 and something so oh

Katherine Ann Byam 2:06
my goodness, it's incredible. So what we're talking about listeners is that Roz had a film crew come up to her mannequin empire. And it's just been off the charts how people have been responding to what she's been doing. So So Roz, I'd like you to share with my listeners, the origin story of mannequin and how you got started.

Roz Edwards 2:27
And there's a deliberate misspelling of the word mannequin. And there's a little story behind that. And that is, I was going to be a retail consultant. I had no intention ever of working with mannequins, it never even entered my mind. But I was putting content on my website all about retail strategy. And I thought, well, mannequins are a big part of retail, but I've never worked with them. So let's start researching.

And I basically put a page on my website that said, I've got mannequins to hire, which I didn't have my telephone number, and then just some pictures of some mannequins that I knew well, I could buy some, you know, if it was just like, let's let's just put this out there on the internet and see what happens. within 24 hours, my phone started ringing with people wanting mannequins, like in London next week. And of course, I didn't have any, so I had to sort of lie and just say, Oh, I'm terribly sorry. They're all out on hire at the moment. So then, it basically carried on and you know, for the last was for nearly 14 years now.

The phones never stopped ringing. But in those early days, I was operating off of Roz Edwards, just my own website. But I thought, No, this is it needs its own name. So being a little bit of an expert with websites, and SEO and everything, my initial thing was, well, I should try to get mannequins, the correct spelling, you know .com.co.uk and all the rest of it. So of course, that domain name had gone. So I went for misspellings. And then when I saw that, I could do Mannakins spelt quite phonetically. And then I broke that word down into two, which was Manna Food from heaven. And kin - kindred spirit. And I just thought that this is perfect name is absolutely a perfect name for it. Because I was literally I had nothing. I was living in a council house on benefits. No job. I'd returned from Milan after living in Malawi for 10 years. And really low self esteem. But I had all this business experience. It's like, nope, we're going to, we're going to rebuild, we're going to do something. And it probably took me about two years before I believed that I could actually I can make money out of dummies. And but it's yeah, it's it's a wonderful gift from heaven. Basically,

Katherine Ann Byam 5:02
Congratulations on all your success, it's immense how you've managed to turn this into a mannequin empire, tell us a bit about the business model or models that your mannequin operation uses, and how your success has been over the years.

Roz Edwards 5:16
So I mean, obviously, in the early days, it was taking very, very little money. And the biggest turnover we've ever had in the year is just shy of half a million pounds, which is phenomenal, really, I mean, even I couldn't quite believe that. And but basically, the way that mannequin works is, it has a huge collection of mannequins, so they're all tidied up, you know, made to look beautiful. And then they're advertised on my website for hire.

And we do sell some but the, I'd say maybe 70% of the business is hiring. So they all look lovely, and they go out in boxes get delivered lead a much more exciting life than I do. And then when they come back in, of course, they've got fingerprints all over the maybe some of the joints that they've got a joint for example, that fits the the arm and the hand together, you know, maybe that's been busted, you know, whilst they're using it, they haven't quite taken good care of it. So then they come back in, and I've got what we call the, the fixing room, for want of a better name.

But in the early days, my children nicknamed it Dolby city, because I actually used to do this in my kitchen from home, fix the mannequins and get them all ready to go back out again. So in actual fact, on the doors to the fixing room, it doesn't say Dolby city because you know, my kids name that after the TV programme.

So they all get prepared. So that can involve Yep, putting bits back together again, sanding them down, cleaning them. And then I've got a spray Bay. So they go into the spray Bay, they're wheeled on, like clothing, Rails, those are, they're all hanging upside down.

And they go in front of the spray, they they have a new coat of paint, if they don't need all of it, they might just need a waft over some of the more than others. And then they get packed. And they go back into their boxes again, and they're ready to ready to go and have fun.

Katherine Ann Byam 7:17
What challenges have you faced or because it sounds like you haven't had challenges, what would you say has been responsible for your success.

Roz Edwards 7:25
So a really, really big challenge that I met. And I didn't find a huge amount of help out there for this either, was, you find that you get to a certain stage with a business. And you have got a certain amount of turnover, as well, and a certain amount of burnout. So you find yourself doing everything because you're, you know, you're a sole trader, but it was a limited company, but a sole person working within that business.

And so there was a point where I'm driving vans into London to deliver like big quantities of mannequins. But I've got my headset on with connected to my phone, because I'm also the receptionist. So then I would get to a lay by and if I couldn't answer the phone in time, I would obviously phone them back my little notepad and pen in the van, and writing all of that down, and then having to come back.

And obviously I've got to, you know, replenish the stock after it's been used. And it was quite exhausting. So my biggest challenge really was, I can't do any more myself, this can't go any bigger. But it can go bigger because the demand is there. So then it was a case of right and compartmentalising as the right word to use everything. So okay, let's have someone on the reception and doing know answering the phone, doing the sales doing all of the admin, right, that's one person's job.

Now let's get someone fixing the mannequins. Now let's get someone spraying the mannequins. And so at one point I had about 10 staff. But that is another thing, again, is bringing all of these people in because all of a sudden, you've changed from being this kind of really exciting times of running your own business and making money, too.

I've got to be like the staff police now. You know. So anyway, what I did is I went and took a course in management and that helped enormously. But I found my role had changed, you know, because I'm really I'm now properly the director, and I'm directing everything. So that that was a big challenge, but a huge amount of success and you know, massive amount of wealth came out of that just at the right time. So it all pays off. It all pays off. Nothing's easy, otherwise everyone would be doing it.

Katherine Ann Byam 9:54
Absolutely. No. And I totally get that it's a big jump once you start bringing people on because as you say it's a completely different job. It's a completely different role. And not all of us want to do that role.

Roz Edwards 10:06
Yeah. And we don't have the experience, we don't have those skills. I mean, there were times where I really felt that How the hell am I going to do this? You know, because I don't know how to manage somebody. So I learned. That's what you do. So you've just quickly get on and you learn,

Katherine Ann Byam 10:22
Really outstanding. And I want to tap into the circular economy principle that you're running your business on, I can imagine that when you started, there wasn't a lot of talk about the circular economy, how did you influence clients choices in this way.

Roz Edwards 10:36
So it that is actually quite an ongoing battle, because it can come down to price. But it can also come down to almost like people's greed with things, they want to possess things. So they don't necessarily see until you know, I've spoken to them, how hiring can benefit them. And of course, as I've just explained that process, you know, the mannequin comes in, it goes here, here, here, and it goes out again. So they're constantly spinning round and round and round that there isn't more of a circular business model there, I think to show. But the whole mannequin industry is linear.

Let's go and get them all made in China quite often, somewhere in the Far East, there are other places that make them but that's, you know, the main manufacturing point, let's ship them all that way, right across the world. And then we'll have them in the shops. And then usually, maybe I think the cycle is gone longer now, but it used to sort of be every four years, right? Okay, we'll get rid of those mannequins now.

And then we'll go and get some more. So you've just got them, they're all doing this journey like this all the time. And what hiring does, is what we've already got the mannequins here, let's cut out all of that transport. We don't need it, because they are here. And getting that message across is easier with the smaller independent businesses. But when it comes to the big guys, they can't quite see it.

Some can some of you know someone now working with doing it. But generally, it's, you know, like I said, they they've been transported, they'll be used for however many years, and then crushed and go to landfill. So my job very much is persuading my clients that look, they're here. They're, they're beautiful. And in actual fact, because we're renovating them all the time, every time they you know, they've been out and they come back in, they're better than these ones that you can buy, you know, from from the Far East.

And then let me see what I can do about all of this waste and this rubbish. So I got a phone call from someone who said, Oh, I see what you're doing. We read this as quite a few years ago now. But I see what you're doing. We've got about 100 mannequins that are going to go in the bin. But the owner doesn't really want that to happen. They want them to be reused. Would you take them? So I said, Well, yeah, of course, how many again, he said, 100. And then over the space of the next four months, and this is what I was buying mannequin Hall as well at the time.

So thank goodness, because 25,000 of them turned up. There was one Arctic Chuck after another. And I remember phoning him and just saying, Are you having a laugh? And he said, Well, do you not want them because they are going to be crushed if you don't want them? And I said, Well, okay, send them. Because there's an issue here. There's a problem. And I want to fix it.

Katherine Ann Byam 13:36
It's so amazing. I just love this story. And I want to talk a little bit about mannequin mountain and and that location in Lincolnshire, can you tell my listeners what they can experience when they visit?

Roz Edwards 13:48
And we've had a couple of horror films made there. So you can imagine, really, it's it's most horror films, they start with maybe you know, two girls are in a car, and the car breaks down and it's raining, and it's dark. And they live too long. They find this place, I think, Oh, well go in there and use the phone because you know, it's out in the middle of nowhere, and there's no one there, their phones aren't working and all the rest of it. And then they obviously they wander in and discover that they've made the wrong you know, they've taken the wrong term, basically, it's very much that kind of vibe to it. So there's some beautiful big gates that you drive through.

And then you're just hit by which one of my friends said it's a visual assault, basically, that's what it is. You don't notice the mountain when you come in because like you come in and it's just to the left of you. So quite often people come in and then when they're driving out, they go, Oh my goodness. All of those may say Yeah, and so there are the buildings themselves that used to be a secret airbase for the Americans during the Second World War.

So that's all quiet exciting story as well, and but there are literally like, you know, mannequins all over some sorted some waiting to be sorted. And then yeah, there's all sorts of creepy looking buildings. fantastic views out the back when you get round to the back. Absolutely gorgeous views across the Lincolnshire ridge. And so it's a really beautiful location. And then yeah, and then you would wander around or drive around because you can drive all the way around. And then there's just the biggest pile of mannequins that you've that anybody has ever seen. I mean, I'm sure not many people have even seen a small pile. But this is it's colossal. I think someone recently told me you can see it from space

Katherine Ann Byam 15:42
for. And I know that you also have a Halloween feature as well.

Roz Edwards 15:47
Yeah. So we get people in and in the daytime, and, and almost everybody says it. And that is, I bet it's really scary here at night. And so I went, I went down to Somerset, and it was at the time it was 2015. And it was the time when Banksy had launched Disneyland. So I went in and had a look around there and totally fell in love with the whole thing. And I looked at the size of that site and thought, Well, that's about the same size as mine, I could do something like this.

And then that would provide the solution, if you like for all of those people is that I bet it's scary here at night. So what I did is I followed banks his whole way that he promoted it as well with you know, there's trip hazards, there's no lighting, you know, there's no toilets, all of this kind of thing, come with a torch, you know, prepare a little survival bag, you know, in case you get abducted by mannequins, and people loved it. They absolutely loved it.

So that's, you know, gone on for several years, when it came to 2020, of course, and all the fun that we've had there. We were all in the tears at that time. And everyone had to still stay in the family bubbles. Somebody said to me, you're going to do the Halloween this year? And I said, Well, I can't. How can I do it? So we've got this road, which at the time, obviously had loads of mannequins in the way. So I said, right, let's go clear that because people can drive round.

And that's what we do. We had a really successful event that year. And so many people thanked us for it, because we'd all been shut in for such a long time. The whole feeling that they could come out and be safe as well. I mean, I made up a story that there are child mannequins on the loose with teeth, you know, and they're very dangerous. So do not get out of your vehicle. I mean, obviously, I had the environmental health people at the council phoned me obviously have concerns with an event going on during COVID.

And I had them in absolute fits of laughter. They just said, we've got nothing to worry about with you, Ross. Just go ahead with it. It sounds brilliant. And then last year, we people were able to walk around again. So good. It's good.

Katherine Ann Byam 18:02
I want to wrap up with a final question, which is there are a lot of people who want to start sustainable businesses or have started them, and they're struggling with their growth.

Do you have any advice from the journey you've been on? Bringing the circular principle to life?

Roz Edwards 18:18
Yeah, so one thing that I think we can all do, which perhaps we don't, is just constantly be on the look, if you haven't already got a product that could be circular. Just keep your eyes peeled, because there are things out there that nobody is actually doing yet. And what's been great about mannequin is, man, I remember when I started someone saying, Oh, you say you're going to do shop fittings now and counters for shops and things. And they said, No, I'm not going to get distracted by all of this.

It's just going to be mannequins. Because I mean, even within that niche, there's no other film location, Halloween events, and people being able to stay over in the mannequin graveyard at night. That's one of my next things I'm about I'm about to launch. And then just establish that really sort of simple, easy brand, right from the beginning. I mean, when I started, I thought if this isn't going to go big, I'm going to know quite shortly. And so I can change the idea and start to do something else. So yes, I'd registered the domains. I registered it as a limited company.

And I also bought the trademark as well. So I own the word mannequin, because nobody on this earth was going to get in my way, you know, so I was very, very determined. And all of those things are just so important. I've seen that they you know, a few people that are they haven't taken those steps, which you know, and it because they didn't know they weren't advised that that's what they should do. And then they've got so far with their business.

I need to find that there's someone bigger out there doing it. They're not the same but very similar. And they've trademarked the name. So what do you do that You know, how can you move forward, you've got to change and rebuild. And that, you know, having to get to that point is, is devastating, actually. But also, the other thing is to, is to think big. So interestingly, with my business, I knew that there were other manikin companies turning over in excess of a million. So the numbers game for me was, it's open, there's no, I only need this amount of money or what have you.

But interestingly, what happened is, yes, the turnover hit, you know, half a million, I've got all of these staffed worry about, it turned into this other thing, and I could see it going into something that I didn't necessarily want. And so I have actually scaled it back now, you know, with lots of different processes in place, so that, like all the automation, or the website is automated for people to go and hire mannequins and everything. So it's so important that we don't just start something and, and just get carried away in the here. And now we have to have that vision, we definitely have to have that vision and those solid foundations of things like, yes, it's a limited company.

Even the VAT return, I've registered for VAT when I was turning over 100 pounds a month, you know, the VAT threshold is obviously it's 85,000 pounds or something. Most people wait until they get to there. But then you've got to either add 20% onto your prices, or you've got to absorb that, you know, because it's an extra cost. So all of these sorts of things, but there's got to be foresight in it. You know, there's got to be a vision there of actually why why are we doing this? Why are we doing this?

Katherine Ann Byam 21:40
And I guess if you're if you're selling to companies, or hiring to companies, etc, then having that fact charges negligible to them. So it all makes sense if you design it that way. So finally, tell my listeners how they can find you.

Roz Edwards 21:53
So mannakin.com, so that's MANNAKIN because everyone has a problem with spelling, even the correct word of mannequins. And I've got a really, really beautiful lead magnet that explains why the mannequins are sustainable and circular. And what kind of mannequin you would need for different situations. And then a reference to the extra bits and pieces that I've got going on including club mannequin as well.

Katherine Ann Byam 22:24
Wonderful. I'm going to leave all the links for them. Thank you so much Ross for gracing us with your presence today. I know you're a very important YouTube superstar. Thanks for joining me.

Roz Edwards 22:36
Thank you.

Katherine Ann Byam 22:40
Season Four of where radius launch was brought to you today by Katherine Ann Byam business resilience and strategy consulting services. Katherine provides business assessments and strategic support to help guide your business toward a netzero future. Get in touch with Katherine Ann Byam on LinkedIn

068 Breaking Gender Bias Thread by Thread

About this Episode

Sally Dear is the founder of Ducky Zebra, a childrenswear brand that challenges the outdated gender stereotypes found in high-street kids’ clothing.

She was frustrated by the impact of gender stereotypes on her children. The language they were hearing, TV they were watching, games they were playing, and the clothes they were wearing, so she decided to tackle one of these areas, clothing, as a means to changing the narrative.

During her early research she discovered the negative impact of the fashion industry on the world around us. It accounts for 10% of global carbon emissions and nearly 20% of wastewater. In the UK an estimated 350,000 tonnes of clothing ends up in landfill every year.

She decided to run a different sort of clothing brand. Ducky Zebra supports slow fashion; and are passionate about reducing their environmental impact, being ethical and transparent.

She’s won competitions, and features, and is working to build this revolutionary brand into a household name.

We talked about:

Gender Stereotypes in Children
The conceptualisation of Ducky zebra
Business Growth and Challenges
Brand Impact and perspectives

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Episode Transcript

Katherine Ann Byam 0:03
Sally, welcome to where Ideas Launch.

Sally Dear 1:33
Thank you so much for having me. I'm delighted to be here.

Katherine Ann Byam 1:36
Really great to have you. I'm going to start with the big question, why gender stereotypes such a burning issue for you. Can you share that with our listeners today?

Sally Dear 1:45
Well, I think for me, it became a burning issue after I saw the negative impact it was having on my two children. And after that point, I did quite a lot of research. And I discovered that between the ages of two and five children become avid gender detectives. So they're looking for clues to make sense of the world around them. And they're like sponges, so they absorb things at lightning speed.

And that might include the colour code of pink for girls and blue for boys, the toy rules of dolls and parents for girls, and sports and cars for boys and the behaviour rules of kind, sweet and pretty girls, and strong, brave and confident boys. And research shows that by the time children are as young as six, they've already made sense of the world around them, and their place within it. And this can then go on to influence future choices and decisions, such as the subjects they choose their career paths, their salary, mental health, and behaviour.

So not only do these stereotypes influence their decisions, and limit their opportunities, but also, for those children that don't fit within a stereotype, it can be very stressful. So as an example, if a boy really likes to colour pink, in our world of pink for girls, and blue for boys, that boy might feel very confused and isolated. And sadly, they might be teased by other children for not following the gender rules that they've learned. So with that research on top of the the impact I see it was having on my children, I became very passionate about trying to remove those restrictive stereotypes.

Katherine Ann Byam 3:37
It's incredible how powerful children develop these skills at such young ages. And you don't actually realise it until you hear something when they can actually verbalise what they were they're thinking and perceiving. And then you're like, Well, where did this come from?

Sally Dear 3:52
completely agree. Sometimes we're almost blind to it, because we've grown up without ourselves.

Katherine Ann Byam 3:59
Yeah, you're right. So you decided to start with clothing. But you don't necessarily have a background in fashion. So tell us a bit about Ducky Zebra, and the sort of conceptualization of the brand the products and why they matter.

Sally Dear 4:12
But you're right, so my background isn't in fashion. It's a marketing and predominantly for the automotive and rail sectors. Why Ducky Zebra? Well, at the age of four, my daughter mentioned she couldn't be a taxi driver when she was older because she was a girl. And it made me stop and see the world through her eyes. And I decided I wanted to do something about it.

And originally, I wanted to do something that would help her and other girls be whoever and whatever they wanted to be. But during my research, I discovered things were just as bad if not worse for boys. And at that point, I decided I wanted to do something that would help girls and boys equally.

Why clothes? Well, clothes are often seen as an expression Have our identity. And yet from the point that we're born, our gender often dictates what we wear. With girls often wearing clothes that are pink, and pastel in colour with cute pretty images, magic, fairies focus on looks and beauty and messages of kindness but not necessarily confidence, while the clothes for boys are often blue sludgy, and colour with ferocious teeth bearing predators, messages of bravery and heroism.

And while there might be a focus on confidence, there's not necessarily a focus on kindness. So with Ducky Zebra, we've created unisex clothes that celebrate both kindness and confidence equally for girls and boys alike. And they're suitable for babies and children up to six years old. And we've had children involved with the designs themselves, which means they're really bright, colourful, and good fun. So we know the children wants to wear them. And we've also tried our very hardest to design the clothes and manufacture them in a way that is as sustainable as possible.

Katherine Ann Byam 6:11
That's great. I remember when I was three or four years old, my mom dressed me up in this pink outfit, and I was like, I do not want to wear this I cried, cried and cried and cried until she switched me to the blue one. lasting memory!

So we hear and speak a lot about business models on this podcast in particular, because I like to explore something that I like to call the parallel of the business model and the impact model. So I'd like to ask a bit about your impact model as well. How have you set up your business to touch on the various sustainability interests that you have?

Sally Dear 6:48
This is such a good question. And sustainability has been important for Ducky Zebra from the very start, and it's one of our six core values. And I think maybe in order to answer your question, it makes sense to first look at what the business models like for the fashion industry typically. So it's one of multiple seasons, regular new shiny collections, fast production and low prices. And this forces pressure down onto the factories, onto the workers and onto the quality of the clothes. And it also creates a throwaway culture.

This isn't kind and it's not sustainable for the planet. So for Ducky Zebra we wanted to set up our business model differently. We do, of course, want to make money because we need to survive, and we want to grow. But it doesn't take priority over being kind to the people that make our clothes or to the planets. For us, we use the rethink, reuse, recycle and reduce framework. And that has really helped us. So by way of example, when we were looking at the fabric we wanted to use, we decided to use certified organic cotton to reduce our carbon emissions and our water waste. So the grown organic cotton requires up to 91% Less water compared to conventional cotton, and it admits up to 46% less emissions.

We also took a long time to carefully select our manufacturing partner. Now they're based in the south of India, and our values are really closely aligned. And they're continually looking for ways to rethink their processes in order to reduce that impact. As an example, currently, 50% of their power comes from solar energy, and soon as will be 85%. They also do things like harvest rainwater, which helps to say save the groundwater levels, and they recycle all wastewater. And then in terms of the clothes themselves and the designs we've used, we've really tried to prioritise longevity. And so they meet they're made from high quality fabric, they're designed to last and pass on to siblings and friends for reuse. And deciding is generous.

And we have little features like roll up and roll down cuffs so that they can grow as the child grows. And by ensuring that they're durable. Their lifecycle can be extended, which again helps us to reduce our carbon water and waste footprints. We've also tried to ensure that our designs are timeless and unisex. So rather than adopting the latest trends or seasonal gimmicks, we're rethinking fashion for children. So we create small volumes of colourful unisex designs that can be reused regardless of the season or the agenda. If you don't have anyone to pass your old stock is ever close onto.

We have a pre loved programme which allows you to recycle your clothes by returning them to us and We then pass them on to the Oxford baby bank where they can be reused. We also work with a fantastic organisation called rap Cline's, who help upcycle any clothes that perhaps we can't pass on to somebody else, or were unable to sell. And they upcycle those into small little drawstring gift bags, which we can either pass on to customers or sell. So there are so many things that I could talk about. But I genuinely believe by being sustainable and trying to reduce our waste and impact, it opens up so many opportunities, and so many possibilities for being creative.

Katherine Ann Byam 10:39
And this is cool. And I want to tap into that a little bit if you can share a bit about the opportunities you've had, because of this lens that you've taken, but also some of the challenges you've faced in growing this business.

Sally Dear 10:52
So I mean, in terms of the opportunities, I touched upon wrap kinds, who are fantastic organisation, but they could see that with every and fashion industry, there is fabric waste. And together, we've looked at how we can reduce that waste by turning something that is ready to go into the bin into something that someone's going to really enjoy and love. And actually, so I've got a little pop up shop at the moment, and I sell these wrap kind bags. And they're fantastic size to keep like little distractions, if you're going out for a meal with your child, and you want to put a few activities into the bag to keep the child entertained, they're a great size for that. And the kids loved them. So it could have ended up in the bin.

But instead, it's been loved and enjoyed in terms of the challenges. Well, I developed and launched ducky zebra, during the pandemic. And I would say without a doubt, that's been one of the biggest challenges. So like working on the designs while freelancing to raise funds, while homeschooling my two kids, and I was the manufacturing was delayed by around six months. And I had a very good relationship with the factory, and I wanted to remain loyal to them.

But I would say the fact that we were on opposite sides of the world at that point was definitely a challenge. And when we were coming out of lockdowns, they were going into them, the pandemic has definitely thrown a few challenges away. And then I'd say since launching, I have two kind of key daily challenges, which is raising awareness on a limited budget. And then I'm sure you experienced this yourself the constant juggling of competing priorities, and wearing multiple hats from one minute to the next. And particularly because a purpose led brands was sustainability at the heart, there is always more that we could be doing.

Katherine Ann Byam 13:05
Well, that's definitely takes a toll on you emotionally as well, the decision fatigue, because we have to review so many details. And you know, sometimes you have to to compensate to sacrifice some things that you really care about other things that you care about more. And it takes its toll. Right.

Sally Dear 13:25
I completely agree with you. There is that emotional drain? And because we're passionate about what we do, sometimes it is hard to make those compromises like you said, as well.

Katherine Ann Byam 13:36
Yeah, absolutely. So what would you say have been the keys to your success in this venture so far?

Sally Dear 13:45
I'd say. At the very beginning, before I started to do anything, I conducted research, and I managed to speak to over 1000, carers and parents. And I think that was invaluable. It highlighted a number of common problems and themes, which I was then able to start to address with my clothing and with the business. And I think doing that research before I created a solution has really helped. And the research also helped to crystallise my six core values.

So before I did anything, I had a good idea of the problem and the themes and trends. And I also have my six values. And that's helps to guide the products, our content and articles, our marketing and social media, and also the audience that I'm trying to reach. So I'd say that's been really valuable. And then I would also say being flexible and adapting to change and being open to trying new things and collaborating with new people, especially during the pandemic when there have been so many unknowns has really helps with our success as well.

Katherine Ann Byam 15:02
And well done for persevering through through it all and getting to this point. Thank you. How has the journey impacted your children? Oh,

Sally Dear 15:10
well, sadly, my daughter is now too big for our clothes. So it took me too long to launch and when she's upset about, but I really hope that I'm being a positive role model to her. And as for my son, Eli, he loves the clothes, he proudly wears them. And inside each of the pockets, there's a little embroidered splash motif, which acts as a physical reminder for children to splash kindness and confidence.

And he loves rubbing the little embroidery and he doesn't have to wear a school uniform. So he loves to wear his duckies every trousers so that he can rub that at school. And I think he for him, the values of kindness and confidence really appeal. So aside from having a very busy and slightly stressed Mum, I'm hoping that it's had a positive impact on them.

Katherine Ann Byam 16:03
I get that, as a woman running a sustainable business, what advice do you have for people getting started today or thinking about it?

Sally Dear 16:11
I think it's great being a woman running and starting a sustainable business. I've been amazed at the fantastic network of people, yourself included that I've come across, and people are so open to collaborating and supporting one another. In terms of advice, I'd say Believe in yourself. Know what your purpose is, or the problem that you're solving.

And stay true to that collaborate and connect with other like minded people, and in particular, other people that are at a similar stage in their business journey to you. And so I've been really fortunate and finding a number of people that I can speak to and share ideas with and learn from as well. Get used to working outside of your comfort zone because you can do it. And finally, have fun and enjoy yourself because you're going to be spending a lot of your day doing it. So you need to love it as well.

Katherine Ann Byam 17:12
Great advice. How can my listeners reach out and connect with your brand?

Unknown Speaker 17:17
Thank you so much for asking. I'd love to connect with you on our website, which is duckyzebra.com. Or through social media. Our handle is @duckyzebra. And we're active on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, and Twitter.

Katherine Ann Byam 17:34
Really lovely to have you here and best wishes for the rest of 2022.

Sally Dear 17:38
Thank you so much Katherine.

067 Systemic and Sustainable Mobility

About this Episode

Today, my guest is Tillman Vahle. Before Joining SYSTEMIQ, Tilmann worked with EY sustainability consulting and auditing - working for several globally leading corporations, smaller companies, and the German Government to support better transparency and trust in sustainability reporting.

Previously he worked at Volkswagen Corporate Foresight, where he developed a Master Thesis on autonomous mobility for his masters degree. He also had experiences with German Development Association GIZ supporting a review of national parks Management of the Philippines and the DESERTEC Foundation. He holds degrees with distinction from University College Maastricht and IIIEE, Lund University.

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Episode Transcript

Welcome to Where Ideas Launch. Tillman.

Tilmann Vahle 1:28

Thank you, Katherine. Great to be here.

Katherine Ann Byam 1:30

Great to have you.

So tell us a little bit about systemic and what you guys are doing to help us redesign and decarbonize?

Tilmann Vahle 1:38

Yeah, so systemic was founded five years ago, after the Paris Accords, by the then leaders of the sustainability branch of McKinsey, Germany opened home and Martin stata and the original mission and still is, it's really to double down on environmental sustainability. And basically across the board, right, so we look really at high impact stuff. And across natural systems, the rain forest regeneration, for example, on materials management of the circular economy, through plastics, recycling, on our sustainable battery value chains, in the mobility system, and in the energy system as well, where we run especially work on harder to bed sectors.

So that is, you know, the foundational industries of our economy like chemicals, steel, concrete, aviation, shipping, the stuff that is very hard to decarbonize and more sustainable. And that's what systemics mission is, we work globally, we were now 300 peoples, and since we started 2015 16, and we work with, you know, governments, top corporates, innovators, banks, and you know, large organisations like the WWF, or the World Economic Forum to make that happen. Yeah, and that's, that's what we do.

We try to take assistance angles, not only advising one company, but we, when we advise work with companies, we want to look at how they can be part of a better future system? So the system is our client, if you will, and then we run a lot of consultant analytics to underpin these consults. Yeah. And then that is what where we think we are USP lies where you're putting the right players and the right brands together to really put the accelerate the decarbonisation fundamentally,

Katherine Ann Byam 3:25

How did you come to work in sustainability? And was it always in your role since you started working?

Tilmann Vahle 3:30

Yeah, so I mean, ever since starting studies, basically, I had the goal to look at the largest challenge, large challenges of our time and decarbonisation are climate, climate change and the loss of biodiversity they appear to me like the big existential crisis of humanity. And so, you know, with all the modesty of the young student went right into that.

And the way that I that what caught my attention in the beginning, and what brought me on my path that I'm on now is, I read an amazing book by the founders of the Rocky Mountain Institute, which is called Natural Capitalism, which is all about, if you look at systems from a fundamental angle, I could go back to the physical principles go back to like a proper, deep dive refurbishment of the system. And you can make dramatic improvements with actual cost savings.

You know, when I started there was this belief that sustainability is always more expensive, right? It's a trade off between our wealth to our well being. And that book basically just says, now that's just not true, right? If you do it right, actually, things improved dramatically in all directions, including for economics and for social welfare. And the more I'm in this space, the more you know, we find it's true, right?

Like nowadays, electric cars are cheaper over their lifetime and conventional renewables are cheaper than fossil fuels in almost every place in the world. And so, this is what kind of excites me and which has brought me along over the years. It's like, well, the decade now. And yeah, so it was always in sustainability that I worked. And I think it's a great, great path now, right, and a great journey, because it's really accelerating all around, but you start looking.

Katherine Ann Byam 5:16

Yeah, I don't know, if it's accelerating, you know, but it is definitely several years you worked with EY in sustainability, you know, what a thing.

What is the role of reporting to improve the whole corporate sustainability performance in your view?

Tilmann Vahle 5:31

And so it was kind of two sided. For one, I think it's important to, you know, it kept coming back to this adage, that you what you can't measure you can't manage. I mean, that's the foundation that, of course, you need data, you need the transparency about what happens in industry, what happens in companies actions. And so corporate reporting on ESG topics is super important, like reporting on their financial matters is super important. So like, you know, you can invest into them and have transparency in and can make investment decisions the same for all sustainability topics.

And equally, like the data that you see, or the info that you get from corporates, in the sustainability reports, for example, they, we need to be looking out carefully for what's audited, and what is driving, I think that's, for me, the key takeaway from my time at EY auditing is so crucial. So you can trust the data that you get, right. At the same time, the ESG reports, you know, they have they came from ESG papers from a marketing. And so they aren't a reflection of the strategy of the company, right? So we need to also like, be careful on how to interpret them, and exactly is what you read is what you get.

But it doesn't change the impact of the company fundamentally, right? So there's a limit to what you get out of it. And it doesn't reflect the relative size of the impact to the problem, right? Like, if X amount of co2 is emitted by a company, what does that mean? It doesn't give you a rating, like a framing of it. And so what you need to do is using the data you need to go read and requesting the strategies and the business models fundamentally, like an oil company can never be fully sustainable, like, inherently. And so going back and going to the fundamentals goes way beyond reporting.

And that's where I'm so excited to work at systemic where, you know, we use reporting, but we go through and beyond it, to help these companies improve more and more fundamentally.

Katherine Ann Byam 7:31

So you also worked for Volkswagen, can you share your thoughts and how that company has recovered from the diesel scandal and how it performs now, in terms of facing climate targets?

Tilmann Vahle 7:43

Yeah, when I was at Fox learn, and it was in 2012, and 14 for say, one and a half years or so it was an interesting timing, because it was around the time of the IPO of Tesla. And back in the day, when I talked about Tesla and electric mobility, even with a relatively senior management, it was all Miami, they refurbish these, you know, small convertibles, but know that you could never scale.

This is not for volume, you know, who cares, basically. And I mean, of course, many people had realised that it's fundamentally luminous to where to go, but they didn't see a path for volume manufacture for autos, to actually go there. And so this has changed. So fundamentally, and so the diesel crisis in 2015, I think, was a catalytic event in a way, right, because for one focus on was was sentence in the US, for example, to invest heavily into electric charging infrastructure, which is now coming back as a boon to them, where they're rolling out electric cars, right, because now there's charges where you can actually use them. And so, for one, I think it's helped tilt the perspective and also, of course, unveil the corruption that had happened.

Yeah. And I mean, I'm, I don't want to talk more about that. I mean, it's all in the press and all that. But what's the fact is that folks that are in right now are the largest investor in electric mobility globally. It's like, I think half or something of all the investments that go it's like way beyond 100 billion euros that invest in electric and smart mobility. And so that's a huge, huge drive. And so after Tesla, they're probably runner up in that transition, and of course, being this huge, huge corporation, they have a huge leverage, also, right.

And so they're that strategy, I think right now is probably the most ambitious in the entire Old automotive industry, which is very plausible. It's going to be a hard one, but I think it's quite amazing what they do, and they have a very good comprehensive view. And so it's, it's good to see that, you know, even large incumbent companies can turn around and become really frontrunners in these kinds of talks.

Katherine Ann Byam 9:52

Yeah, no, that's a positive story and I think I had not realised how big they were in that space at this moment. So thank you for sharing that. Sustainability by nature is complex. And there are many angles to examine before we can read something as sustainable. And for example, there has been a report showing that shared Micro Mobility solutions are not nearly as sustainable as we think. So can you share why that is? And what can we do?

Tilmann Vahle 10:19

Yeah, that is a tricky topic, right? I mean, on the one hand, I'm, I'm all for moving away from like, a pure car based mobility system. I mean, it's quite well known, right? That cars have been, I mean, combustion cars particularly have a terrible environmental footprint, not only in the co2, right, I mean, also just a really, waste of space in a crowded city, right? And you move around like several tonnes of material to generally just move one person on average. And that's it.

I mean, we're gonna always use cars to an extent, right, and so electrifying, and I think that's to start off with, like, moving to electric cars is so so important. It must happen very, very fast. Yeah, they're a lot better and the only decarbonization option really on in the mobility system that we have. So that said, like, for cities, cars aren't really in most cities, not that not really the optimal solution, right. And so how to, to have an alternative is, of course, other modes of transport, like the so-called modal shift, moving away from cars to other modes.

And public transport is something that is very institutional and takes a long time to build, to operate, it also tends to have to be subsidised. And, and so there's always going to be gaps that can't be filled with conventional traditional public transit. And so there is this hope that micro mobility, like the scooters, and scooter, shares, and rentals can fill that gap. And so therefore, help people move away from cars to other modes, yeah, and get around cities without that. And so that's great.

The challenges empirically, that's not really what happens. But these scooters and micro mobility options, they tend to be used by people that don't have a car anyway, and would have taken the tram or something. And so it's not really shifting, yeah, it's just changing from a normal car mode to another mode. And that becomes problematic, because these micro scooters, I mean, they've not been around for variables. And they don't, you know, they're not perfect products. Yeah, so they don't last very long.

And I think one data point that I read from one of the large consultancies was that these kick scooters last on average two to three months. And so that's two months, and then you scrap them. And so you have a few kilometres that you take, and then you scrap them. And so that's a lot of battery materials, a lot of steel that you just like, they don't have a lot of use for a long time. And so all that footprint that you had in production, is just wasted after a very short time.

So that is bad. Secondly, to put them in a city, you know, they offer their suppliers and need to drive around and basically relocate, right, and sometimes you see them with a van coming, picking them up and charging them and putting them back out. And these vans around diesel, and you need quite a lot of these to drive around. And so right now, because they are not electrified, there's actually a massive co2 footprint attached to these just from making the system work. And so it's gonna take a while until they improve and actually become a sustainable quote-unquote, mobility option.

Katherine Ann Byam 13:24

I want to challenge you and something, please. You said that we got to use cars, we have to use guys that have to move to electric cars. But do we really need cars?

Tilmann Vahle 13:37

Very good. depends on the location where you're at. Right? Right now 70% of people in Europe live in cities. If you've tried to look at the definition of a city, it's very tricky, like what constitutes a city? Because it's basically always just a matter of local demarcation. Yeah, like what is the city boundary, there's, there's, like a city can just draw a boundary wherever they want, you know, historically.

And so that could be that, you know, a city contains regions where there's really just, you know, the odd dispersed house somewhere where it's really far distances, where you don't have a Buddhist connection. We don't have a tram, let alone a metro. Were really other options. But individual mobility doesn't work. Yeah. And then of course, if you have to say, I want to live in the city flat and generally bike everywhere, but if I need to go to IKEA, whatever, and buy a bookshelf, you know, I do need a car.

I can't put it on my bike. So there will have to be cars. Of course, we will have citizen urban centres, particularly right now. Our use of cars in the western world is obscene and like providing mobility in other parts of the world, like say, India or capital cities and an African in many African countries would just not be feasible. The amount of people putting them in cars like you would probably grow the city tenfold. So that wouldn't work. So yeah, we can use a lot of fewer cars in many, many locations.

And the great thing is that the EU has just passed a legislative package, where they will ask the top 450 cities in the EU to create sustainable urban mobility plans. So basically plans how they can improve their mobility. So everybody will have to reflect Okay, country, you know, improve road infrastructure, bike infrastructure, trams, and Reno improves the options to move away.

That said, we will still have cars all over the place, ultimately for in the long run. So yeah, electrification is priority number one, because you know, what happens now, but ultimately, it's, you know, think President Obama said, former President Obama is like, you know, isn't all of the above options like, yeah, we need to do everything at the same time. So that's not an either or.

Katherine Ann Byam 15:55

So I interviewed Yanis production IQ earlier in this podcast, and one of the things he was talking about is that the minute you purchase a car, you have already spent, I don't know, roughly two thirds of the carbon outlay, just by purchasing it, because of the resources it takes to make it I know, electric cars will be slightly different, because they probably made in electric factories. So it's a little bit less in terms of the carbon way, but it's still extraction of resources.

And that's still a problem. I guess why I'm pushing this is that it's really about, we should be embracing what's happened with the pandemic, and really encouraging less people going to work, which is already creating big savings and teams. I mean, I've used my car probably, I don't know, 12 times for the year 2021?

I don't know, it's not. Right. And I think that there's a real argument here for us to make our next transition. One that is, you know, really using more public transport, it could include things like Ubers, right, because they're just as efficient or, you know, other providers, it's just as efficient as having your own car, because you get them within two minutes, they take you where you want to go, you potentially have the entire coffee yourself. And it's, it's a solution, that means that the car isn't parked up, you know, just sitting around waiting for you. Right, which is one of the biggest problems that we have. So that's why I'm pushing it. I mean, what are your thoughts?

Tilmann Vahle 17:24

Um, yes, no, I work closely with Ganesh and all behind the analyses and messages of the UN International resource panel, right, like half of global co2 emissions come from extraction and manufacturing of materials, and 90% of the biodiversity impacts, it's like immensely important that we lower our resource consumption, right. Doesn't matter if we decarbonize or not, we need to go down with our consumption.

So yeah, 100% and there's also a great opportunity in reducing our travel through I mean, you know, we're on a what is it zoom call now. And that means that the work world has changed fundamentally and permanently, because three years ago, barely a company was using Zoom, and all these hassles, who was allowed to use what and all that, and that's changed, and it's here for good. And so we don't need to travel quite as much anymore, we won't have to fly to work with clients so much anymore. And I mean, systemic has been operating virtually for, for the pandemic, of course, as so many have, and it's been going great.

We do need more people to contact, right. I mean, mentally, like for mental well being. And that's a huge, huge challenge everybody's having. And so we will have to see each other a little bit more right, again, but of course, it's a good change to travel less.

That said, there's these fun rebounds, like, well, then we're all sitting at home, right? And so basically, in the long run, We'll all meet in another room. Additionally, in our flats we have a home office, right? And then you have kids, maybe and your partner's also working.

So you need larger flats. So how do you do that? And then, like, is it really more sustainable, like generally looking at needing to be somewhere you need to heat your place and you have lighting and eating and I don't know, for myself, my heating bill has gone up by a third, just because I'm so much at home. And so I don't know whether that is in the long run really more sustainable that you know, it's going to have to be analysed. But that said, it's great to have better utilisation of spaces and have officers on our vehicles and we definitely need to go there.

Katherine Ann Byam 19:32

Yeah, I mean, I mean, what we can do is instead of working wherever your offices you go down to the neighbourhood office that's now weekend and you use that as a co-working space but I'm gonna let you off the hook on this one I know a lot more analysis than we have time to do on this podcast but

Tilmann Vahle 19:48

but I love by that point let me just jump in what I love that idea Katherine like the decentralised you know, co working spaces. And we have a bunch of colleagues that do this. You know that that works in And then permanently and you know, we just meet occasionally. It's great to decentralise it that way. Yeah, very good.

Katherine Ann Byam 20:05

It's a great solution that I think we need to be thinking more broadly about. But as you say, You guys are the ones doing the analytics. So looking forward to hearing your summaries, what are the current projects you're working on? And what impact are they likely to have on decarbonisation? This year? 2022?

Tilmann Vahle 20:22

Yeah, so one of the large ones that we are currently developing and that will go live in April, hopefully, is the battery passport. That's something that the EU has put in regulation. Last year, that every battery every large battery, so not the, you know, the mobile phone batteries, but like stop storage batteries and car batteries that come onto the market starting 2026 We'll have to have a better passport, basically a little database, and that you could access online, that tells you that so the consumer but also b2b manufacturers and to government, what's the co2 footprint?

Where's the material from? So if there is critical cobalt in it, for example, what share of it is recycled? what chemicals are in there, so you can recycle them better? What's the state of health of the battery? So you can use it for a second life application, for example, after it's not good enough for the car anymore? So very important information for both business and sustainability. And the thing is, it doesn't exist yet. And so the question is, which data in what form? How do you get it there?

So there's a lot of questions that still need to be debated by industry and politics, technically, but also content wise. And so we've put together a consortium of like a dozen leading automotive companies, material companies and science institutes with the Fraunhofer Institute like top researchers, and the World Economic Forum to answer some of these questions and contribute to that.

That's one of the big projects that we're starting. But we're also working with an economic forum on a study on circular economy policy between the EU and China. That's going to come up mid-year and hopefully start a great discussion. And working with a bunch of corporates also on Yeah, taking their perspective on living in that future urban mobility world and improving the full lifecycle impact.

So it's going to be a very, very, very exciting year and wait, yeah, we're growing very fast. We're doubling our team this year. So looking forward to applications as well, we're looking for colleagues.

Katherine Ann Byam 22:20

Right. I'm going to talk to you about that as soon as we finish this. So what are your thoughts on how the battery materials and rare crisis can be resolved? Because I think that this is the growing concern.

Tilmann Vahle 22:33

Yeah. No, and thanks for pointing that out. Right. Because it is definitely and to be honest, it's a matter that isn't only relevant to electric cars but to the whole decarbonisation well pathway overall, right. I mean, if you move from coal power plants to distributed solar, for example, we need a lot more IT infrastructure, a lot more electric motors and a lot more chips everywhere.

And so that's where the wires come in. Right? And just for the foundations that it's often misconceived that electric cars have reversed and the batteries have reversed and it's not really the case like rare earth are in electronics and in electric motors. Yeah. And so they're, like in very small amounts, you have them in very crucial batteries. You have cobalt, nickel, lithium, manganese sometimes depending on the chemistry. And none of these is rare. So like also chemically part of the rare earth group but they're also not chemically rare.

The challenge is that they have sustainability issues. And they're not there's not enough around right now. No, cobalt, infamously comes a lot from Congo and child lemons human rights concerns, lithium comes partly from southern America with concerns about water use. And nickel is really expanding. For example, in Indonesia, where there are some impacts on or dramatic impacts on rainforest and oceans. And so that needs to be fixed.

Thing is, right now we like what we're looking at right now. The batteries right now. They're basically what engines were, like 80 90 100 years ago. Yeah, so very primitive, if you will, and right now the innovation is oh, so fast that every like three months, there's new announcements of new chemicals, new new ways of manufacturing, and that we need less and less material to get the same performance.

And, they're getting less and less harmful. And so for example, Tesla's announced that for the big things like the module, model, three, the volume model, they're moving to lithium iron phosphate batteries altogether. And that's important because we talk about cobalt and nickel as the key problem materials. Well, you know, Tesla's already moving away from them, half of the batteries in the cars in China this year already, like 2021.

We already have lithium iron phosphate batteries that don't have any cobalt and nickel in them. So that's a challenge that is real, but it's also that for one limited cost, and for another, not going to be a problem for cars, predominantly in the long run. Yeah, and so it shouldn't be something that blocks this innovation. It's something that we should manage as well as we can. But in the medium term, you know, clean that up and limit and recycle everything that we have. But it's not a fundamental challenge to electrifying cars. So that's very important to keep in mind.

Katherine Ann Byam 25:19

For someone interested in a career in sustainability, what advice would you give them?

Tilmann Vahle 25:23

That is a great question. And to be honest, as I've looked back many times, I am now looking forward. Also, what could I do? What can I do? What can I apply myself to, but the thing is, at least since 2018, with the new IPCC report on the 1.5 degree goal, I think everybody's realised that climate change is real, it's happening, we need to act super fast. I also mentioned, technology has changed so much, like you know, solar is now cheaper than fossil electric cars basically, in two, three years time.

If you can't buy an electric car, that's your problem. But you want to buy one right this way here. So now it's shifted right? In the past, it was a lot about convincing people that we need to act, then it was a lot about okay, convincing people that it's possible to act now. It's really a question of okay, getting it done. And so if you want to move into sustainability, well, yeah, definitely educate, take a systems perspective, and you know, ask twice, like, what rebound effects? What's the complex value chain behind things? And who really has the power to change the system?

Fundamentally, is it me eating a little bit less meat, or, or using a bit less plastic bags? Or is it really, you know, the heating system where I don't have an impact on - Half of our emissions are basically from heating and lighting our homes. So whether you use a plastic bag or not, in the grand scheme of things, is really not important. Sorry to say. So I like learning to look through what are really the big challenges.

And then actually, you know, learn the skills that you need to grow businesses to legislate to contact and reach out to people to communicate, like basically business skills, normal still like to change stuff. You need to have the skills to change stuff not to be smart on sustainability. So I think that that's changed. Yeah. And so going to strategic consultancy, to bank to invest into politics, that's all opportunities to make a change, wherever in which whatever position you are.

Katherine Ann Byam 27:26

And that's great. How can my listeners get involved and support your work as well as possibly join systemic?

Tilmann Vahle 27:33

Yeah, I mean, we're, our goal this year is to grow by 50%, from 300 to over 400. And in all our locations, that's London, Amsterdam, Paris, Brussels, Jakarta, Jo Paulo, Paris. So yeah, please do apply, reach out, I mean, through LinkedIn, right, we are easy to find. I'm looking at our website, I think people will find a lot of interesting projects. So that's systemic dot earth and have a look there.

Katherine Ann Byam 28:06

Perfect. Thank you so much for joining the show today.

043 - Slide Into Slow Fashion

About this Episode

Today on Where Ideas Launch, I have Fanny Rousseau joining us. She's a French "slow fashion" designer based in Brussels. Through her clothing brand, Trousseau, she empowers women to feel beautiful, safe and free in their clothes. She advocates for inclusivity by offering a large-size range, and custom sizing. She also helps other brands define their aesthetics and have a better relationship with the environment. Fanny, welcome to the show.

The garment industry contributes over 10% of the annual greenhouse emissions and 20% of wastewater worldwide from textile dyeing and treatment. With its significant impact to the environment, the industry will have to reinvent itself and reform its resource-heavy supply chain.

As consumers, our collective behaviour and the choices we make towards our clothing are important in reshaping the industry.

In this episode, we talked to Brussel-based "slow fashion" designer and clothing brand owner, Fanny Rousseau. Fanny gives us a fresh insight into the inherent value that clothes bring to the person wearing them, the energy and the careful thought that is put into making each piece, and reasons why we should choose a "slow fashion" wardrobe over fast fashion products that pollute the earth.

Key Points:

Trousseau is a slow-fashion brand that empowers women to feel beautiful, safe and free in their clothes. It also advocates inclusivity by offering a large-size range, and custom sizing.
Brussel-based slow fashion designer, Fanny Rosseau helps other brands define their aesthetics and have a better relationship with the environment.
Clothes serve to protect us both physically and mentally. By wearing clothes that are measured and tailored to our unique style, size, and body shape, we feel safe, free and confident with our body.
By choosing clothes that are ethically sourced and produced, we are choosing to be responsible to the planet.

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Episode Transcript

Fanny Rousseau 0:55

Hi. Thank you for having me.

Katherine Ann Byam 0:57

What inspired you to start Trousseau?

Fanny Rousseau 1:00

I'm a trained fashion designer. So I went to school both in France and in Belgium to learn about how to make clothes. So I learned how to make good fashion culture. And then I went to Belgium to learn about the more ready-to-wear side of things. And during this part of my education, I learned everything that was wrong with the industry. And so I really did not want it to be part of that and I wanted to stay in Belgium. Belgium is a really small country and there's not a lot of job opportunities. So I thought why not make my own. So at 24 I decided to launch Trousseau which was a big hairy jump, because I just graduated. So I did not have a lot of experience. But I was really into learning and growing along the way. And also, I had this really specific experience because I am short, and I have a body that is not normal. So I do not have anything that really suited me. I always hated my body when I wore clothes but not when I am naked. I love my body when I am naked. When I wore clothes, I didn't really like my body. And I feel like a lot of women have this. So that's why I wanted to do made-to-measure so everyone could wear the clothes that fit them the best.

Katherine Ann Byam 2:30

Yeah. I think that's really a powerful statement because there's so much wrapped up in women's identity and their confidence and their ability to stand up for what they believe in. So much of it is wrapped up in how they look or how they think they're perceived.

Fanny Rousseau 2:47

Yeah, in the end that's the first thing everyone sees either in real life or in social media and stuff like that. Clothes are really important part of who we are and how we make the world see us. I read a book once that said that it is an armour that we put on us in order to protect us from everything that's outside, both physically and mentally. Of course, clothes keep us warm. That's something that clothes do. But also, they help us mentally to protect ourselves. Like if I have a big meeting or an important thing to do, I love to wear something that makes me feel powerful. So I know that I can go through it and be perceived as someone powerful.

Katherine Ann Byam 3:39

It's interesting because you actually made an outfit for me that I wore to the biggest speaking event that I’ve ever spoken on. And I remember the top had wings. And I remember being on the stage thinking I'm flying in my wings. And I remember feeling this sense of incredible euphoria and comfort in what I was wearing, how I was appearing, and how I was commanding the stage. Even though like you know when you're in this kind of intense sort of situation and the nerves can overawe you. But I remember feeling completely confident. And I think that a lot of that was about how I felt about the clothes. It was also about the energy you put into making that piece of clothing for me. So that's such a big part of working with a designer to really fit you.

Fanny Rousseau 4:31

I really like to connect with people that I make good clothes for. Mostly when I do customs like the one I made for you. And I put a lot of good energy in the clothes that I make because for me making dresses is kind of therapeutic. So that's something that I learned about myself. This is what I like to do when I'm feeling down. And I try to make people feel as good as possible inside of my clothes because I tried to make everything good in me inside of them. And I had a few people tell me that the clothes that they bought from me were really like what they needed to go out on. So there's one lady who bought one of my sweatshirts. And it's really soft on the inside and maybe like a blanket. And she sent me a text, saying that she was feeling down because she had COVID. And she felt really depressed after that because she had a really hard time. And the first time that she went out was with my sweatshirt. And it toned down her anxiety because she had a lot of anxiety from going out and maybe getting COVID back or something like that. So it was really important for me that she told me that because it's exactly what I want. It's the same with your experience.

Katherine Ann Byam 5:59

So which of the Sustainable Development Goals guide your business values.

Fanny Rousseau 6:04

So I think I'm trying to be as human-friendly as possible, also planet-friendly like I don't have any bolts. So I make everything to order. Every fabric that I use is either organic cotton or organic hemp which I try to use as much as I can. I also use recycled polyester but I try to avoid it as much as I can. Because I don't think it's really good for the environment because they have small plastic particles that go in the washing machine and then in the water and everything. But that's something that I try to do. And then humanly, I try to make it as ethical as possible. I try to track every fabric that I can find and know as much as I can about where they come from down to the fiber. It's really hard to do that when you're a small company but I try to do it as much as I can. I'm very transparent about it. When I don't know, I say “I don't know.” Then I make everything myself so there's no overseas labor. I think that's what I have in the goals.

Katherine Ann Byam 7:22

What challenges has the pandemic brought for small fashion shops such as yours, and how have you responded?

Fanny Rousseau 7:29

So I started in February 2020, about two weeks before the first lockdown. I had a lot of fairs planned. I was invited to some sustainable or slow fashion events both in Belgium and France. Everything was almost planned for May, June, and July. I had a lot of these that were planned and did not happen due to the pandemic. And so that's something that did not help me grow in the beginning because I only had Instagram to grow my business. And that's not something that was really easy. So I decided to have a place to work at so people can come and see. And that's how I opened the shop in Brussels in September, and then the second lockdown happened so that's something else, then that's the side that affected the work mostly and money as well like everyone else. And then I felt really alone in my business because I was working alone. And I could not meet any other people that work alone, or even go to meetings with other female entrepreneurs or stuff like that. I know these meetings happen usually during the year. That was something that was kind of hard. So I need to find people that have the same kind of business journey in life. And that's how I found your group on Facebook.

Katherine Ann Byam 9:02

What have been sort of your greatest moments in your business since you got started?

Fanny Rousseau 9:07

I think overall feedback from people is my biggest achievement because that's really what I want to do. I want to make people happy. And then I also made a video I think in May about the relationship between mental health and fashion, something that we talked about a little bit and it was really about how designing, wearing, and choosing your clothes can affect your mental health, both from the designer point of view and the consumer point of view. And I have one lady coming to the shop after seeing this video. She told me that she never could find anything to fit her because she is really thin. She took her clothes to be tailored to her size. Because she saw my video and she felt super happy to have clothes that fit her. And she was so thankful to have seen my video about this because that's what made her feel happy. So that's good too and I think also being there still after the pandemic and still having my business growing even though everything was super hard, and still is! And I see that I'm growing even more. I think that's my biggest achievement.

Katherine Ann Byam 10:36

That's really wonderful. I just love for you to share your feedback on your experiences working with us in the Women in Sustainable Business group and in the Eco-Business Group Club and some of the things that you would recommend about the two communities.

Fanny Rousseau 10:52

I joined Women in Sustainable Businesses I think in January just at the beginning, and you were doing a little challenge. That was really fun. I really enjoyed doing this. And I think the community has grown a lot since then. But then it was really about talking together. And it was really nice. And in the Eco Business Growth Club, I met really really nice people from all over the world, mostly in the UK. And the content is really interesting. And I learned a lot. And the experts are always super interesting. I couldn't be happier about being in this group. Thank you.

Katherine Ann Byam 11:41

What recommendations do you have to slow fashion brands getting started today?

Fanny Rousseau 11:45

I'd say don't be afraid that there's a big community. Bigger than just being alone in business, join a community because we share the same values. Don't be afraid. It's scary but it's nice.

Katherine Ann Byam 12:02

Where can my listeners find your products and your design-for-you services?

Fanny Rousseau 12:08

So you can find my products on trousseau.net, my website, where everything is there. You can also send me an email. If you want any customization or any product that you have in mind, you can send me an email through the contact form on the website. And then you can also find me on Instagram @ftrousseau which is where I share a lot of pictures behind the scenes of what I do.

Katherine Ann Byam 12:37

Perfect. Thanks so much money for joining us today. It's been a pleasure chatting with you.

Fanny Rousseau 12:42

Thank you for having me.

Katherine Ann Byam 12:46

This episode was brought to you today by the Eco business growth Club by Katherine Ann Byam and by the space where ideas launch, the Eco business Growth lub supports positive impact SMEs with coaching new health and community support toward achieving the impact and reach they set out to meet. You can find out more by connecting with where ideas launch on Instagram or following the hashtag where it is launched across all of your social media.

035 The Ink Bin

About this Episode

Becky Baines is a teacher and single mum to two enthusiastic young boys, living is North Essex. She established her eco-fundraising business, The Ink Bin, in 2019 as a direct result of trying make an impact towards issues of climate and recycling as well as raising valuable funds for schools and charities across the UK. She now works tirelessly to save home-use ink cartridges from landfill and, to date, has recycled approximately 30,000 products destined for landfill.

Becky has stuck firm to her teaching roots and produces a wealth of free, downloadable resources for young people interested in environmental matters. Her latest project is encouraging busy teachers to set up Eco Councils or Eco Clubs within schools by giving easy step-by-step weekly resources and ideas as well as starting points for weekly discussions in schools.

With twenty years of working in schools, Becky recognizes that young people are in an excellent position to create new routines at school and at home which will have a lasting environmental impact as well as hopefully reaching a more mindful life.

The business which she has created works on a Community level, whereby schools; charities and plastic-free groups can place The Ink Bin within a local area and collect home-use ink cartridges on a wider scale. This is increasingly relevant now that 67% of us say we intend to remain working from home at least part of the time post-Covid19. Most of the products sent to The Ink Bin can be refilled and thus reenter the Circular Economy- the ideal environmental solution. This model allows The Ink Bin to give money back for certain cartridges and schools have raised anything up to £550 on an individual basis in the past year.

Becky’s latest campaign has seen businesses place The Ink Bin within their offices to collect employees’ home-use ink cartridges as they move to a more split working routine between office and home. One of the latest national businesses to sign up have placed Ink Bins across their regional offices in support of the homeless charity Emmaus UK. Businesses are asked to sponsor The Ink Bin installation and then services are free after that; with the freedom to choose their own charity of choice.

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Episode Transcript

Katherine Ann Byam 0:02

Becky, welcome to Where Ideas Launch.

Becky Baines 0:44

Hello, welcome. Thank you. Good morning. Thank you for having me.

Katherine Ann Byam 0:56

Wonderful to have you, Becky. Why is it important that we address ink disposal in your view? Why is this such a passion for you?

Becky Baines 1:04

And I think obviously, we're on a journey where we need to be thinking about everything we use. But I think for me, ink is something that is an essential part of our lives that we can't do without and at present technology means that it still has to be in plastic. And the other thing about ink is the fact that they are actually so easy to recycle. They are likened to a refillable water bottle. So as long as they go into a factory, they can be refilled up to six times. So for me, it's about spreading the word to people that it's okay and very, very easy to recycle them. It's also something that we're selling so much of in the UK. We're selling 45 million units every year and 80% of those go straight into landfill, which is just unnecessary.

Katherine Ann Byam 1:55

Well, that's a really big number. Yeah, tell me a little bit about where you have these services available now in the UK and how your business is set up?

Becky Baines 2:06

We started off mostly focusing on schools and charities. So I created the ink bin as such, which is a lovely cardboard bin, which gets personalised for each individual organisation that works with us. We started by sending out ink bins across schools, charity shops, various different places, and the local community would then bring their ink cartridges and drop them in. As we grow, we're getting more and more interest from local councils, retail outlets, chains, and all sorts who are keen to actually put the ink bin across all of their different stations.

Katherine Ann Byam 2:48

And what's been the biggest struggle for you and getting all this going? I can imagine you've had a few.

Becky Baines 2:54

We've had a few, I think keeping the resilience going. I think COVID really was difficult for us. And as it was our second year of business as well. It was just keeping the faith that actually we are doing something really special and to keep going. And it's proven that the last few weeks actually since things are opening up more. All of a sudden the business is going where I very much hoped it would be. But I think it has been that resilience to keep going on the days when we're working so hard and you keep having the message that we love what you're doing. But we can't do it with you because of COVID.

Katherine Ann Byam 3:37

Yeah. And how have you balanced this with your teaching life? I can imagine that's also complicated.

Becky Baines 3:42

Yeah, it is. So I still teach every morning. And I do that via zoom now. And I have a wonderful student who I work with. But yes, it's been a real struggle to balance everything. And especially because anybody who knows me will know I'm so passionate and enthusiastic that I take on every new project that comes my way. So really, I guess what has fallen by the wayside is any sort of personal life or time for myself.

Katherine Ann Byam 4:13

And how are you incorporating this into the teaching work that you do?

Becky Baines 4:22

I think I try and incorporate it into the teaching, but I think it's been the other way around more so that the teaching has completely impacted the journey The Ink Bin has taken and we do tireless work with schools. And we're very, very set up to work with schools because I understand what busy places they are. So I make the systems very much fit into them rather than having to fit in around us, but also working tirelessly with educating young people on matters of sustainability. We produce weekly newsletters for anyone who wants to read them, but they talk to really five to eighteen year olds. And I am at the moment on the committee for the Eco culture Stir Festival, which is happening in September, running the educational side of things. So I think it's a case of once a teacher, always a teacher, and I think anybody who starts to look into the business will see that it has had a huge impact on how the event runs.

Katherine Ann Byam 5:26

And you mentioned that but what is your team like?

Becky Baines 5:31

The team is very small, it was very small. And I say we because actually at the moment it is pretty much me and my two fabulous children who spend their lives groaning that we have to go out to another event, or mommy has to sit and go on another zoom call. And we are in the process of getting a kickstart with an employee, which I'm thrilled about, and in the process, also of looking to employ some young people around the local area to help with the educational provision as well.

Katherine Ann Byam 6:03

That sounds really, really fascinating. Yeah. And, what gets you into sustainable design and the circular economy? What was the inspiration for you?

Becky Baines 6:14

And I think, I think, like so many people, I'm passionate about what's going on in our world and the changes that are happening, and I'm a mom of two young children. I want them to grow up in a beautiful world. So I think when I came across a business that can help the environment, and help schools and charities to fundraise, it was a win-win for me. But then, the more I engrossed myself in the sustainability world and the more that I developed my understanding of the circular economy, the more I’m just hooked. I'm passionate. It's common sense. It's just a wonderful, very, very simple concept.

Katherine Ann Byam 7:00

Yeah, that's brilliant. And in terms of these eco councils and eco clubs, what have you gotten from those so far? How many of those have you been able to implement and how are they progressing?

Becky Baines 7:11

Again, COVID has been such an issue for us. So we have lots and lots of people wanting to be engaged. We work with schools that already have eco clubs, but sadly, haven't really been able to run them. And I think so much of being an eco-club is actually young people getting together and bouncing ideas off of each other or going outside and doing something practical together. At the moment we are just waiting for September. I'm so excited for September to come when I think there's going to be an explosion of environmental understanding and passion. And I'm really really hoping that come September, we can get hundreds of new eco clubs inspired to start up.

Katherine Ann Byam 7:59

Wonderful. And in terms of your, your spread across the UK, how far across the UK. are you now?

Becky Baines 8:06

Oh, it's funny. I was asked this question the other day, and I realised we have ink bins in all four corners of the UK. We're not so much in Ireland at the moment, but we have them up in Glasgow and Dumfries. We have them in Abergavenny. We're on the east side. So there's lots and lots in the east-end region. And we're down as far as Devon and Cornwall as well. So everywhere which is wonderful.

Katherine Ann Byam 8:32

And are you thinking about collaborating wider to get more into like Ireland or you know?

Becky Baines 8:39

Absolutely, absolutely. We would absolutely love to work with anyone that we can work with completely.

Katherine Ann Byam 8:48

And what would you say to other entrepreneurs who are starting a purpose-driven mission? So for example, I run a community of 2400. I think it grows every day with women in sustainable business who are trying to make an impact wherever they are. What would you say to them in terms of continuing this journey?

Becky Baines 9:07

I think resilience has been a huge thing for me, but I also think believing in what you're doing is the hugest thing. Last year, June COVID, there were so many times when I sat with my head in my hands thinking, why am I carrying on with this when my poor children aren't getting me? I could be spending this time playing a board game with my children. But it was the belief that I was doing something really special that kept me going. And I also think that we're in such an exciting time with sustainability at the moment that things are moving on so rapidly. That it's not a daunting prospect to immerse yourself in it and learn and become knowledgeable very, very quickly. I'm speaking with so many people at local councils and other organisations at the moment who are only just beginning of understanding what the circular economy really is. So I would say to anybody who is interested in sustainability that it's not too late to join the party. It's an exciting time.

Katherine Ann Byam 10:26

And I noticed that your business model involves the charity space as well. So tell me a little bit about how you're managing the financing and getting all this stuff working. Tell me a little bit about that. Because it's also interesting for a lot of people.

Becky Baines 10:40

Yeah we are able to because certain cartridges have got some value, we're able to give money back to charities. We started this with very, very little investment, a little bit of investment from my family. And other than that, we have worked on an absolute shoestring. And I jokingly say that we've been a cottage industry, but we live in a little cottage on the edge of Essex, and there have been ink cartridges all over my house for the last two years. And I think we've been very careful with how and when we've grown, we now have a large office space. But we didn't take that on until we knew we could afford it. We're now at the stage where we can afford to take on a member of staff but we haven't run too quickly.

Katherine Ann Byam 11:30

Yeah, that's great. And have you had support from local bodies? Have you had support from councils, for example, or other government grants?

Becky Baines 11:40

No. We haven't, sadly. We've been looking into it. But I'm not as of yet. We're trying to get some sizable grant opportunities and I think that is in the pipeline. But very much it's been running as a very small business and building organically. We have had interest from local councils who are wanting to buy our ink bins and gift them out to the schools. We actually have just launched with sustainable schools. Leicester who bought 14 bins from us and then gifted them to 40 schools in Leicester. And I'm hoping that will grow as well.

Katherine Ann Byam 12:21

Okay, that's interesting. Who are the suppliers that are contributing the most to your ink recycling stock?

Becky Baines 12:41

We work with lots and lots of groups. And the one thing that I think is quite unique about us and not the most entrepreneurial thing, but certainly the most sustainable thing that we do is we will accept any home use cartridge even if they are not profitable for us, which then actually appeals to wider groups such as Terracycle groups, and particularly environmentally friendly schools who have already maybe been down the journey and been doing in cartridge recycling for a long time, but they choose to come to us because we will accept a cartridges such as an Epson cartridge or a Brother cartridge. And we also don't provide the plastic envelopes which a lot of the more sustainable groups we work with like. So I would say one of the big groups that we've had nice success with is people passionate about plastic, people wanting to do the recycling strains. And the added bonus for them is that they can make some money for their group out of it.

Katherine Ann Byam 13:48

Alright, I think I'm going to ask the question slightly differently because it's an interesting answer. And I might need to go back and edit my question. But when you think about Epson and Brother and stuff like that, who's the biggest contributor to that stock of recyclable cartridges? Then basically what can you do with them? So let me ask it again, right. Okay. So which company contributes the biggest stock of recyclable ink cartridges for you and have you considered working with them?

Becky Baines 14:25

And at the moment, about 60% of what comes through are Canon and HP. About 20 to 30% of that of our overall stock are the inkjet cartridges which we can refill and give money back for. We also have an awful lot of Epson cartridges come through. And other companies such as Brother, Kodak, not quite so much. And we are working towards working with these companies. I actually have had a phone call from a couple of them over the past. As we grow, let's hope that we can work in partnership with them.

Katherine Ann Byam 15:03

I think that would be a really good strong message as well. Getting that responsibility to look back, it's all part of the circular model anyway.

Becky Baines 15:14

It's an absolute joy. Yeah. And the more joined-up thinking what we can all do is for the greater good, isn't it?

Katherine Ann Byam 15:21

Wonderful, really good. Thank you so much, Becky. And if you have any closing words or last advice that you want to give to my listeners about either getting involved in this space or continuing?

Becky Baines 15:33

I think the biggest thing that I'm passionate about is engaging young people. So we now have two websites, we have theinkbin.co.uk and we have theinkbinschools.co.uk. I would encourage anyone with children in their lives or young people in their lives to head over to the website and have a look at the newsletters and other resources. They're all completely free. We do it out of love rather than profiteering. And just please have a look. Contribute if you would like to and let us know your thoughts.

Katherine Ann Byam 16:04

Wonderful. Thank you so much for joining us on the show. Thank you

034 Sustainable Supply and Sourcing

About this Episode

Using the TECK method to improve your supply chain sustainability and resilience, from our host Katherine Ann Byam, Business Resilience Strategist & leadership Coach.

TECK Stands for Transparency, Energy, Circularity and Knowledge. Tune in to learn more, and share your thoughts with us! We are on instagram @whereideaslaunch

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Episode Transcript

Katherine Ann Byam 0:01

Today's session is about sustainable supply and sourcing. And before I get into what we could be doing to solve this problem of sustainable supply and sourcing, I need to tell you why this matters.

Now, we are using resources at 1.7 times their rate of natural regeneration. We have become less efficient at converting those resources that we extract from the ground than we were, let's say in the 1980s compared to today. And part of this is because we have changed the source of supply. Most of the world aspires to be at the level of wealth of let's see, for example, the US.

Now as people aspire to have more and to grow more in terms of wealth on an average scale, we're going to demand more of those resources than we have in the past. Climate change will also render many places uninhabitable, starting, let's say in the 2040s, to 50s. And this will invoke mass migrations and a number of other economic and social challenges that we expect will emerge. Technology can give us solutions if we use it in the right way. And there are also projects underway all around the world to rewild nature in some form or fashion in order to get us to a point where we can move the needle on what we've been putting into the atmosphere in terms of carbon with a very, very urgent timescale for change that we need to commit to.

A lot of customers are becoming more savvy. So as we get into the marketplace, we're starting to see a greater demand for a greater need for knowledge around things that are sustainable. I think customers since the global pandemic, have really started to reflect on what it means to them to live on this planet. The recognition that there's only one blue planet that we have that we can currently inhabit makes this need to do something that much more urgent.

We have also seen things like vaccine capitalism come under real attack because still, we are developing the world and we're developing this planet on the notion of nation-states, where the situation that we're in today, it's so globally interconnected that some of these decisions can no longer be taken on a national level. realistically. Yes, we can still take it on a national level. But will we have the impact? Will we have the same efficacy if we take decisions on a nationalist level?

So these are questions that consumers are starting to ask. Now, in some countries, there are no furlough protections like we have in some of the Western countries. So there's no social protection around the issues that have emerged from the pandemic, including the loss of jobs, the loss of tourism, etc. Now, wealth inequality is rampant and growing.

There are something like 2700 billionaires who own enough to be the biggest country by GDP. And it's only getting worse. The number of people that represents 2,700 billionaires is less than .0005% of the planet. Netflix has been doing a great job of educating people around the topics of sustainability, with independent films such as “Seaspiracy” and “Cowspiracy.” And there've also been a number of interesting films on Amazon, for example, “Living the Change.” And what these are doing is creating a movement in people's minds that they need to do something different, that they need to be more responsible, and that they need to make different choices about their food, and about their repurchase of things and how many things they want to accumulate, how they dispose of their things.

But we're going to talk a little bit about how we can make our supply chains more sustainable for this purpose so that we can address the needs of our customers. Another anecdote that I'd like to share with you, I was talking to a friend of mine who runs a group on Facebook, and he told me that he started his group, it's called Sustainable Living in 2014, and by 2020, much he had 3000 people in his group by September 2020. He had 65,000 people in his group. Today, he has 75,000 people in his group and this shows that there's been a huge shift of people looking for sustainable solutions groups that have sustainability in their name on Facebook have been growing exponentially.

My own group of women who are running sustainable businesses has grown by 100 a week for the last month. And it's starting to accelerate. So this is really becoming a thing. There are ways for us to go about checking our carbon footprints, etc, as people as individuals, freeways, which is also helping to expand the knowledge and make people more aware.

So now I want to get into exactly what we can start doing in our supply chains to think through this sustainability equation. I think about it as tech. And I will explain what tech means it has four elements to this sustainability puzzle. It is transparency, energy, circularity, and knowledge. And I'm going to go into each of these topics so that you understand what you could be doing differently in your supply chains to make a difference.

The first point you need to know about transparency. It's about making a statement; making a statement to see what you definitively stand by when it comes to elements of the whole sustainability puzzle. Sustainability, as you know, it has many different angles, we can start with the human side of the thing. Are we against modern slavery in all of its forms? Are we paying our workers a living wage? Are people able to survive based on the contracts that we're giving them? Is all contracting fair?

That's a key part of the transparency debate, and we should be having that publicly available on our websites. How is the ratio of CEO pay to the lowest-paid worker in organisatio? What's that ratio like? And how we preserve certain reasonableness with that ratio also dictates how transparent and how respectful we are of the human side of the story. Then we have revealed things about our suppliers themselves. So as we supply, we also have suppliers and our suppliers should also be following some of the rules that we have determined are necessary to be an ethical company. So we need to think also about our suppliers.

We also need to think about the way our products are disposed of. Transparency is about communicating what solutions are there to recycle the products that we sell. Getting into this further, you can go the certification route. And the certification route gives other people, your customers and suppliers etc, an idea of who you are if you have a certification that states basically the rules that you have agreed to comply with. This already goes part of the distance, I say part of the distance because certifications have been challenged through their ability to truly verify what's happening.

There are two certifications that are very popular at the moment in this space, which are the fair trade certification and the B Corp certification. Both of these are useful in terms of progress because they do assess quite a wide variety of topics. You can become certified without having all of the boxes ticked. And this is where these certifications can come in the challenge at times. But the idea is that you set a roadmap for yourself as to the things that you want to accomplish. And as you accomplish them, your ranking will increase. So it's a good idea to get involved with finding good ways to be transparent about the good things that you're doing and also to be transparent about the things that you're still progressing. Both sides are important. It's not just a topic of greenwashing. Now we get to energy. Energy is the second in the tech framework and energy for us. - it's really about where you're sourcing the energy to convert your products, how aware you are about the usage of energy in your organisation, and how efficient you are on the usage of energy and the things like your website. So it's not just about the physical product itself, but it is about what's happening in your offices and your website, how heavy is it to load for customers. All of these things need to be validated and checked before we can see that we are truly energy efficient.

So it's not just about the choice of our energy provider. It is also about how we're returning energy to the system. It's also about how efficient our entire systems are to carry out the work that we asked of it. To see in tech is about circularity and the key question here is how are you sourcing your materials, and can your sources be recycled? And this is essential because we need to be able to communicate to our customers what they need to do to dispose of that product. We also need to think about how we can create a second-hand market for that product. And a number of companies have done this. So they do buy-backs, they do sell secondhand versions of their products. And this needs to be something that we go deeper and deeper and further into, especially if we can make that product more efficient to use in terms of energy. So as much as we can recycle and reuse and change and shift even if it is, you know, scrapping the thing for parts and Using that into the process. Minimising waste is a key part of what we need to do.

Also, using different types of plastics will allow the things to be able to return to the earth, for example, and break down more efficiently as well as being able to reuse them in other products. The other bit of circularity is about your supply chain responsiveness to being able to collect things.

So I have a great business model. Someone I've interviewed on this podcast, the model that she uses is that she gives her product in bottles, and then she's able to collect the used bottles when you make a reorder. All of this is important to your customer, they need to know how to end the life of that product that they've purchased. If you have a circular model designed or some links to other companies who will provide that recycling for you, you need to communicate that. The last letter in the tech framework for supply chain resiliency is knowledge.

Knowledge is about how you're communicating with your employees, your customers, and all your stakeholders about what's key to be measured in your space around sustainability and its goals. So if we think about the UN Sustainable Development Goals and that framework of 17 goals, there's a lot there that we could be sharing and tailoring to our organisation. And this is about real education and real change as opposed to greenwashing. So it's not about CSR and PR featuring what you're doing. Because that comes under real attack. It's about making real changes, communicating but making real changes, and also communicating where you have not yet made changes and what you're planning to do.

This is where we start winning the respect of people who are interested in purchasing our products. So this brings us to the end of the tech framework. I hope that was useful in setting up how you can think about your supply chain for the future. Please follow my future episodes where I will be talking about the supply chain in more detail. Thanks so much for listening.

Thanks for listening. This podcast was brought to you today by career sketching with Katherine Ann Byam and The Space Where Ideas Launch. Career Sketching is a leadership development and coaching brand offering personalised career transition and transformation services. The Space Where Ideas Launch offers high-performance group leadership coaching and strategy facilitation to businesses in the food and health sectors.

To find out more contact Katherine Ann Byam on LinkedIn.

018 The Milkman for Beauty

About this Episode

My next guest Claudia worked in financial services for nearly a decade. Unfulfilled and miserable She decided to take some time off to work on an idea that had been niggling in the back of her head for a few years: The milkman re-imagined for beauty.

In her words:

This was the start of my journey to starting Circla, born out of frustration on the amount of single-use plastic packaging in my beauty routine. I raised pre-seed investment from Sustainable Ventures and in August last year quit my corporate job for good! The last year has been a rollercoaster, we have pivoted the business model twice due to Covid-19 and now finally about to roll out our new model across the whole of central London. I run the company by myself with help from friends and family.

Circla contributes to 6 of the UN Development Goals but our main focus is Number 12 - Sustainable consumption and production

We talked about:

Simple change in your beauty routine can save thousands of kilos of plastic waste ending up in landfill
Moving from a linear to circular business model while retaining convenience, price and quality
Staying true to your mission despite the challenges of 2020

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Episode Transcript

Katherine Ann Byam 0:01

So welcome, Claudia. Welcome to our show.

Claudia Gwinnutt 0:48

Hi! So great to be here. Thank you so much for thinking about us. And asking me to come and join.

Katherine Ann Byam 0:54

Yeah, it's lovely to have you. And I'm really interested in Circla because it's a unique sort of business model. Especially in the sustainability space, I have not heard of a model quite like this. So why don't you tell our listeners about what Circla does and what it's about?

Claudia Gwinnutt 1:11

Yeah, sure. So I think the easiest way to understand what Circla exactly does is that we are the traditional milkman-like service, and most people might be too young to remember what that is. But I think most people have an idea. But instead of delivering milk, we deliver beauty products. So exactly like the milkman, you can order the products that you need online, we have a whole range of different brands and products, we deliver them directly to your doorstep, you use them, and when you're done, we pick up your empty packaging, and then we deal with all the kind of faff around cleaning it and refilling it and getting it ready for use. Then you got a kind of filled bottle ready to go. So yeah, that's us.

Katherine Ann Byam 1:53

And how do you separate this from your traditional recycling trash? Like, what are the rules?

Claudia Gwinnutt 2:00

Yeah, so I mean, the way that it works is that when we deliver your products, we deliver it in a Circla reusable bag, which we ask you to keep and you're obviously welcome to use it in the shops or anything else. On the day that we do the refill, for example, we get an alert that says, you might be running out of shampoo, and we message, “Do you need to top up?” “Do you need to refill?” Yep, we organise a delivery date. And while in this pandemic, or at the moment, most people are leaving it outside. And then we'll drop you a message to say when we're about 15 minutes away. Most people just leave it outside, we pick up that empty bag and drop off a new one.

Katherine Ann Byam 2:45

Well, and what sort of network, how far-reaching is your organisation at the moment? Because it sounds like a logistical challenge.

Claudia Gwinnutt 2:53

Yeah, so at the moment, we're focused on London. One, because you have such a high density of population. But it's definitely something that we're looking at at the moment is how do we grow beyond London. I mean, I think the answer lies in probably focusing on other kinds of metropolitan, high-density areas, and then looking at how you expand into more rural areas, you've also got kind of different shopping habits. Generally, the population in London is a lot younger, kind of much more used to delivery type services, and things like that. But you know, these are the same challenges that Uber and delivery face as well because they exactly work better in high-density areas. So I hope that we'll get to that challenge one day.

Katherine Ann Byam 3:42

That's great. And in terms of Uber and delivery, etc, I was thinking about them in terms of picking up those things for you as well. You know it’s like almost a reverse model for them. Is that something that is actually done anyway, I don't even know if that's done.

Claudia Gwinnutt 3:59

Yeah, it's not done anywhere. I mean, there are certain companies. I basically use a company every now and then, particularly during the lockdown. I treated myself to a monthly delivery of flowers. And there's this amazing company in the UK called Freddy's flowers. And they've actually arrived in a cardboard box. Actually, they're really really good with their packaging. It's most flowers we buy in the supermarket are filled with plastics. There's actually isn't and they've actually started because they've got such scale in London.

If you leave your empty box the week before or the month before outside, they actually take it back. So there's definitely a lot of thought going into it. Companies are becoming more thoughtful around “if we're delivering a lot of packaging, how do we take that back?” I get my cute little pet dog the food and it arrives every month. Because part of it's frozen and it has these ice cube packs. They ask you to collect some of that insulation. And then you can keep it and post it back to them. Whether they're reusing it or not is to be debated. But I think what's more interesting is that companies are starting to think about that because there's a demand from consumers.

Katherine Ann Byam 5:14

Now, that's really interesting. Can you tell us about your background before you started Circla? Because I think other people will want to know.

Claudia Gwinnutt 5:21

Yeah. I didn't come from the beauty industry. And I wasn't even a hardcore environmentalist. I actually worked in Finance, finished university, joined Barclays, worked there for about under 10 years. Quite scary to say it really shows my age. There was nothing necessarily wrong with what I was doing, I actually had a really great role. I've been given loads of great opportunities. It was just that inside of me, I was like, “this is not my purpose, I'm not feeling fulfilled, there must be something more.” And then that kind of started my search for it.

Katherine Ann Byam 6:02

Great. So I wanted to ask one more thing about your product. And that is really what's in it for the consumer, like, what's special about the product itself? Is there a price differential? Or is it just that feeling of being responsible?

Claudia Gwinnutt 6:18

I think the main part of it, I think, is the kind of feel-good element that you're not contributing to waste. But I think the other part of it is when you look at sustainability. For example, a lot of beauty brands and products of brands telling you lots of stuff. And for consumers, it ends up being a bit confusing, overwhelming, what to believe, what is good, what is bad, should I be buying this, or should I be buying that.

So, I think one thing that we should start to care is we make sure that the brands that you're actually buying have been kind of thoroughly vetted, you know, not just from their products are really great, and we love them, and they really work and feel gorgeous in your skin or in your hair. But actually, the company itself is also doing good, you know, because I think one thing that will make sense for me is, okay, I'm solving this packaging problem. But then I'm working with a company that, you know, doesn't pay a fair wage, or has no idea about their supply chain. So it's much more holistic than just the packaging.

I think that's one of the bits that we do some of the work for you. So you can rest assured when you're buying from Circla, you're also getting a really great product from a really amazing brand, who's committed to doing cool stuff. The other part of it is, we try to reward positive behaviour. So there are other kinds of refill companies that have come out which have put big deposits on you being able to use the packaging. And for me, whilst that might make sense from a business perspective, and commercially,

I just felt like it’s a hindrance to the customers. I really believe that making things mainstream sustainability-wise is like, it needs to be the same as it is today, but better for the planet. And therefore we reward positive behaviours. For every bottle you return, we give you points which you can use as a discount. So the more you refill, the cheaper it gets. And that's my ethos. I mean, it may be we have to, we might have to change it in the future, but I hope not. Because I think that's kind of the core of what Circla is about. And I think that's why customers choose us.

Katherine Ann Byam 8:30

So you've kind of gamified the process as well.

Claudia Gwinnutt 8:33

I mean, we've got some exciting things and plans. One thing I would love to have is that the minute someone buys a product, they can see the direct impact of buying that product, and also their kind of collective impact. The more that they use Circla, they can be like, “oh, I've saved this much in waste,” or “this much in CO2 and emissions and etc.” That's our kind of roadmap for this year. And then you can also do it collectively. As a brand, we've done this. But yeah, I think there are a lot of people actually wanting to see in actual numbers that they can believe in the good that they're doing.

Katherine Ann Byam 9:10

Now, that's super important, I think. So the last question is going to be around the challenges of getting a sustainable business off the ground. Tell us about that journey, and what you've encountered, and how you've gotten over it.

Claudia Gwinnutt 9:25

Our journey has been a little bit crazy, because actually, before we had this model, our model was focused on hotels, and a B2B model for refills. think all those hotel amenity products, enormous amounts of waste. And in April of last year, we were due to roll out three commercial pilots with hotels to test this business model. Obviously, COVID happened and that rollout didn’t happen. And I guess the year 2020 pivoted into this new model. But I think, more about your question around the challenges of having a sustainability brand, is to have a bit more patience, because things are sometimes harder to do. And you can't just go in, you need to do a bit more research into what or who you're supplying things with? And how does it really work? And is it truly sustainable? I think the second biggest challenge is that you know, you've got to be really realistic to your customers. Most people who start sustainability brands are so passionate about the environment, and they immediately think everyone else is as well. And we all want that. And I do believe that everyone has good intentions, but you have to be realistic too - like the busy mom, who has got no time to go to refill shop or the times that you're out with friends having a coffee, and you have forgotten. You have to remember that that's not that how we might want people to live their lives is not how they are living their lives. And I think that's, you know, a really interesting challenge for sustainable brands.

Katherine Ann Byam 11:10

I think one of the biggest challenges I found, at least in actually working with the group where I met you and looking at sustainability in general, were a lot of small players trying to grow an idea. It's the same idea, but in small little pockets everywhere. And I guess my question is around how can we make this more sustainable for ourselves? You know, I think even before we got live on this call, we talked about this, this idea of being this entrepreneur who's doing everything, and maybe one of the questions I have as well is around things like franchising, like, how can we scale this? What are your thoughts on that?

Claudia Gwinnutt 11:49

Yeah, It’s really interesting, I completely agree with you, I think there are two things. The reason why sometimes they stay in small businesses is that consumers tend to not trust really big brands saying they're doing sustainability. But on the other hand, is that all those small guys keep themselves so authentic, it means that it's quite difficult to grow because it can be really, really expensive. And also sometimes when you see eco brands becoming corporate and big, all of a sudden, the loyal customer base actually starts attacking them.

I think that was kind of the case of Oatly, for example - the oat milk brand. They took money from a massive VC firm, I think in the US, and they got obliterated online for it. Those are the bigger kind of challenges I think you face. For us at Circla, I think one of my biggest focuses for this year is a collaboration with other brands and tapping into each other's communities. Because, I think not to see each other as competition, but to see us like actually, we're all working towards a greater goal. So I'm desperate to work with meal companies that are maybe serving healthy local, vegan food, or organic food delivery companies, or anything like all these different sustainability-type products that exist. How can we actually come together and find a way to promote each other, whether it's your delivery of operations, or logistics, you know, marketing each other? Because that's how I think we become really scary and competitive to some of these big brands when we start working together.

Katherine Ann Byam 13:37

Yeah. I like this idea. Finally, any advice for other sustainable brands like yours.

Claudia Gwinnutt 13:45

My biggest advice is, you're gonna hear “No” so many times, and there's going to be people who don't believe in what you're doing. They're going to give you a million reasons why it won't work. And it comes in a day for people who run a company, they want you to accept that it's just not gonna work. But I think if you've got a really great idea, and you're finding a way to test that, and you really believe in it, you've got to have just a really hard skin and believe in yourself and be able to pick yourself up. Because there's gonna be great days when you get invited onto a cool podcast, and then you're gonna have days where no one buys your product the next day, and no one is interested, and everyone's telling you that it's not going to work. And finding a way to get that kind of thick skin to keep going and believing in yourself, and being patient with the process I think is my biggest piece of advice.

Katherine Ann Byam 14:40

Wonderful! How can people find out more about you especially I know that you are based in London now but how can they find out one about how to buy your products but also about how they can work with you and support you?

Claudia Gwinnutt 14:52

Yeah, definitely please visit our website. It's www.circla.co.uk . You can also find us on Instagram, we're at @circular_., I'd love to hear from anyone who'd like to collaborate. You know my emails, claudia@circla.co.uk. Find me on LinkedIn. I’d love to speak to you and also really happy for anyone who is based in London if you'd like to try Circla and you can get 20% off with CIRCLA20 at checkout. So please come and try us.

Katherine Ann Byam 15:26

Wonderful. Thanks for joining us, Claudia.

Claudia Gwinnutt

Thank you so much.

001 Sustainable Business Trends in Luxury Brands

About this Episode

Where Ideas Launch - The Podcast for the Sustainable Innovator had the pleasure of interviewing Isabelle Chaboud on her insights on how luxury brands are becoming more sustainable.

Isabelle is an inspiration to her students past and present, as she does finance with style and flair. Her articles have been viewed more than 350000 times, a testament to the value she brings.

This podcast explores:

The financial impact of the pandemic on luxury brands bottom line.
The trends in sustainable change and whats driving it.
The upskilling needed by people adversely impacted by the pandemic.

Isabelle Chaboud is an Associate Professor in the Finance Law and Accounting department of Grenoble Ecole de Management. Since December 2018, she has been Programme Director for the MSc in Fashion Design & Luxury Management and since September 2019, responsible for the MBA Brand & Luxury Management specialisation.

Her main areas of teaching are financial analysis (especially in the luxury sector), auditing and international accounting.She teaches or taught in Grenoble, London, Paris, Berlin, Marrakech, Moscow, Tbilisi (Georgia) and Singapore.

Before joining Grenoble Ecole de Management in 2001, Isabelle worked for 7.5 years for PriceWaterhouseCoopers in Lyon, France where she was a financial audit manager. She had clients in various industries as well as in services. She was part of the European Internal Audit team of PwC and worked in Spain (Madrid) and Portugal (Lisbon).

Isabelle is a French native but lived for more than three years in the United Kingdom, two years in Germany, one year in the United States, one year in Spain.

She graduated from Grenoble Ecole de Management in 1992 and from the International Teachers Program (ITP) delivered by HEC Executive Education, Paris in June 2014. She regularly publishes intellectual contributions in different media. to read her article on this topic, click here.

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Episode Transcript

Katherine Ann Byam 0:15

I'm really excited to talk with Isabelle today because she was also my professor when I studied for my MBA, in 2016, and she was one of the most transformational leaders I've met in my career. So, thank you for joining us and welcome Isabelle.

Isabelle Chaboud 1:57

Thank you so much, Katherine. It's really nice to hear. It's my pleasure to see you. This time outside class.

Katherine Ann Byam 2:05

It's really wonderful to have you. So we're gonna get started by asking you a few questions about your mission so I like to talk to my clients to tell them that we need a mission statement we need something to drives us beyond the job. Tell us about your mission statement.

Isabelle Chaboud 2:25

Okay, so my mission statement will probably be three keywords, people and sharing, learning, and passion. People have always been for me, probably the most important thing - meeting people, discussing with them, and sharing my own knowledge, not only in my country but internationally, we benefit all the different cultures, and that's something I always look for. I never stop learning I think since I was little, I always try to read, learn new things, and that was something that really matters a lot to me. It's probably why I studied Audit.

I work for eight years at PwC. Every week we had to audit a new client, a new business model, new industries, from chocolate to pharmaceutical to perfume, fashion, carmakers, always different, traveling as well. I think when you're passionate about something, you will always find time even if a day only has 24 hours, you can read more, you are more curious, you necessarily learn more. For me, those are the three most important things from audit to fashion to higher education, those have always been my motto.

Katherine Ann Byam 4:07

It's so wonderful and refreshing to hear and because I used to be an auditor too and we all know people don't like auditors. So it's interesting for you to share how, how you actually used your experience from audit to develop the career design the career that you have now.

Isabelle Chaboud 4:23

It's true, yeah, people don't like auditors. Manufacturers don't like to be controlled by auditors. They are afraid that you will tell them, "Uh-on that is not correct," "or it's your fault." But if you implement a good relationship with them, you try to explain what you are doing and that you want to bring added value, maybe to improve some internal controls in place, maybe to improve some efficiency, some aspects, it becomes different, so when you work on the confidence in the relationship, I think it's, it's different.

It's all a matter of personal contacts you have with people. I learned a lot from a methodological point of view, being very structured, organized, dealing with different tasks, it's management project. So that helped me a lot when I moved to higher education because it's managing different courses at the same time different locations. I was teaching in Grenoble, Berlin, London, Singapore, Moscow. Also sometimes may be different subjects with different audiences. So the methodology is the key in sharing the knowledge.

When I was at PwC, I did some training. When we merged with Coopers in 1999, we became PricewaterhouseCoopers. Someone had to teach the new methodology and I volunteered in France in my office. They were looking for volunteers and I volunteered. I like it and it was really interesting to try to explain this new methodology to managers, partners, and I also train newcomers. So, methodology, training, sharing some knowledge were really the common basis that I used in higher education, financial analysis, and they switch to financial analysis of luxury companies. This is how little by little, I came to fashion.

Isabelle Chaboud 6:30

You moved from being an auditor, being a professor to being a specialist in luxury brand management. That's really interesting. What's inspired your interest in luxury brand management.

Isabelle Chaboud 6:42

I think it started when I was little, my mother was making bespoke wedding dresses bridal gowns and I used to see her in her atelier or sewing workshop. Sketching, drawing, meeting clients who were explaining what they were looking for and she was trying to draw the perfect wedding dress for them.

Then, she took me to suppliers to buy this silk with her so I went to the region with her. With such wonderful fabrics and then I could see her teaching sewing. There was always something in my mind that I kept for a long time and I always sort of gave birth, I do something related to numbers very structured and then I can use this to be on a more creative side and more creative industry, and I was interested in this craftsmanship aspect, in fact really understanding what's behind the numbers of these companies and how they are functioning.

Katherine Ann Byam 7:58

I think that there's always, there's always a bit of your history and your past and your experiences that come to bear you as you grow and develop in your career so it's nice to see how you've connected that experience with your mom to what you're doing today, and I think she must be really proud. All right, so I want to pivot slightly and I want to get into the business of luxury brand management. And I think all my listeners are curious to know-how is the industry doing.

Isabelle Chaboud 8:27

But the industry has been severely hit as most industries. BCG was expecting some 30% drops, before the beginning of the COVID. And it is confirmed, even more, if I give you a few numbers, talking about the key players who are LVMH, Hermes, Kering, and company Swiss Richemont. I can just give you some insights. For example, LVMH witness a drop of 38% in Q2 2020, which makes the drop of first-half revenue of 2020, by 28% organic, a constant exchange rate. So minus 28% is around 30%.

For Kering, it's minus 30%, first half of 2020, and minus 43.7%, for Q2, which is a huge drop. Hermes also witnessed dropped by 40% for Q2 but cumulated is minus 25% at a constant exchange rate. So, Hermes is the most resilient, out of all the key players. Richemont, the Swiss company which owns Cartier, Van Cleef, and Jaeger-LeCoultre witnessed a 47% drop in their first quarter 2020 sales. Richemont closed their books at the end of March so their first quarter from April to June 2020.

Isabelle Chaboud 10:18

So Richemont has been severely hit and so they have to find new solutions to cope with the situation. And this gave a boost to digitalization so those who already had online sales, saw quite a lot, mostly in China. They witnessed a huge increase. Hermes, for example with 100% increase in their online sales in China. Chinese consumers or the tech-savvy buy a lot online.

Those who do not have online platforms had to partner with the marketplaces like for example Farfetch to help them, or they had to develop their own platform online at a rapid pace. In order to cope with the loss of business from closed stores.

Katherine Ann Byam 11:21

I'm also curious to know how they're going to pivot out. Sustainability is beginning to reshape many industries, and I'm sure not the least of which is the luxury brand industry. Tell us about what, how they're dealing with sustainability.

Isabelle Chaboud 11:35

Yeah, you're absolutely right. It's, it's one of the top priorities. I think now for most players. It comes from the consumer demands actually. Consumers want to know where they purchase the raw materials and in what conditions, how is the production process,, how do they deal with people have when they treat them, gender equality, hygiene and safety, and all those aspects, also the dyeing chemical for example they use and all those elements, so it's affecting the whole supply chain, and up to the end, the way they sell it.

This is why also the circular economy is booming. The demand for second-hand is, is absolutely on the rise. Companies like Vestiaire Collective or Rent the Runway are all seeing a huge increase in their selves because more and more people are mostly millennials are interested in buying secondhand products. So, if you haven't used items or garments that you can resell, you can make money and you can buy also other products, and it can also allow, I would say, other customers who would not be able to afford some luxury product to buy for the first time and some luxury products. I think it's affecting the whole supply chain, from raw materials production, and then selling channel, also omnichannel, and different, different ways of selling not just in stores but also and the new business model of the circular economy.

Katherine Ann Byam 13:26

Beyond fashion, it's also having an impact right. there are other initiatives that people are coming up with within the luxury space as well beyond fashion.

Isabelle Chaboud 13:35

Absolutely. To give you an example, a Startup Ledisi is partnering with different companies to rent between so either business to business or business to consumer. For example, they had a partnership with LC and you can rent a suitcase for just a weekend or for two weeks and I think it's a fantastic idea, imagine you are a student, you live in Paris in a very small place you don't have enough room to store a big suitcase and you want to go to the US and so you can rent a suitcase just for two weeks (of course not right now probably with travel.)

It's a little bit difficult but I think there's a real, real business. People also lots of surveys report show people are more interested in the experience now, more than owning the product. So, this will also allow you to have an experience. I think it's also part of this circular economy and reducing the waste the pollution and giving a longer lifespan also to objects or different items.

Katherine Ann Byam 14:59

Yeah, it's so interesting, thank you for sharing that. So, this is the last question so I really want to thank you upfront for all that you've given my listeners today. I think the session has been really interesting. But what advice would you give to the ones who are either out of work because of the crisis, or just coming on to the job market, what would you tell them what do you suggest.

Isabelle Chaboud 15:20

Well, first digitalisation as we said, we spoke about luxury that is going online and maybe a little longer than the businesses but all businesses are online now you can buy cars online. I mean who could have imagined buying a car online before. so I think having some knowledge in digital marketing and the different platforms where you can buy in some marketplaces in luxury.

We have work marketplaces for those who are beginners, which means it's a tripartite relationship between the company producing the goods between the marketplace where you can buy the goods as a final customer. So if the company producing the goods, doesn't have its own platform, they can use a third party, the marketplace to sell their products. This is the case for Farfetch for example.

And Farfetch is also experiencing a huge, huge increase. You may have heard Amazon is going to launch luxury items. They just announced the first partnership with Oscar dela Renta and this group. And so this is booming in all industries, fashion, luxury carmakers, now you can buy everything online, so I think it's really important to know this. You can find training also for free online.

There are lots of possibilities now, then sustainability, we mentioned that I'm convinced absolutely key there is I think a shift in the mindset of consumers, but also the need for force for the planet and people profit, the planet which we call the triple bottom line is absolutely fundamental so it covers all aspects as I said from the supply chain, the production, and the final distribution, and it impacts the finance as well.

Of course, sustainability really gaining knowledge on that, and circular economy the new business models, don't be afraid of being creative and innovate. I think that's right now really thinking outside the box I think is really, really something important. Being adaptive is very, very important, and having confidence because things are changing, it's difficult, but we need to keep the confidence and try to really believe in these new business models that are coming out and changing faster.

Katherine Ann Byam 17:53

Thank you so much Isabelle Chabaud. Thank you so much to my listeners, this has been a fantastic day and I hope you've got a lot out of the session.